The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#1
Okay, so i wanted to start this debate after reading a couple stories like (and now you can shower me with hate all you want lol) Dragon Child of Thunder or Slavemancer.
So the first thing I'd like to point is that, sadly, the majority of the harem stories on this website have a poor grammar. It looks like it was written by young men full of dreams and fantasies. While it's great to dream and everything, it's not an excuse to make an error every 2 sentences (Btw I'm french and doing my absolute best at the moment to minimise my own errors, so you English people have no excuses. Oh, and I'm a guy for those interested). You should really put an effort to improve this.

The other big, BIG! point is the girls. Geez guys, if you write about girls, have some imagination. Okay the girl is an absolute beauty...then what? Every time the description is so damn superficial and insufficient it's crazy. Go read some erotica, damnit! Try to educate yourself about the opposite sex a minimum! Right now I'd like to point the story Mushoku Tensei, which is a typical Reborn + harem story. While that story isn't one of my favorite, there's a good point to it. Each girl in is harem have a peculiar body type and each girl have a F@% personnality. P.E.R.S.O.N.N.A.L.I.T.Y. Individuality. They exist outside of the MC. They have their own quirk, preference, style, etc. They are alive. They are TRUE characters. Not just some simple sex machine that only exist to pleasure the MC. Some of those harem girls are so plain that I saw a review from a girl giving dating tips and a website for male to the author. Here it is lol:
http://www.askmen.com/dating/heidi_100/133_dating_girl.html

Now to the young men reading these stories. Okay there's sex, and harem or whatever. But geez. It's not a reason to give a crappy  story 5 stars just because there's a harem. Like i said, just go read some real erotica. Here, I'll even help you guys: http://www.wolfpub.org/main.php Go read the stories of Eric Storm, you'll wet your pants, and after that you'll understand what I say when I separate good harem stories from bad one. Authors should go read some too, it will probably help a bit.

So, ladies and gents, your oppinion on the matter? (Btw ''fuck the haters'' is not a valid oppinion if not preceded by at least a paragraph of text)

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#2
Haha, yup.
(By the way, your English is excellent, a lot better than a lot of native English speakers)
I definitely think that a lot of writers write as part of a "wish fulfillment" type of thing. I'm generalizing here, but I think that some people who choose to write harem stories don't have a lot of experience with girls. If they did, they'd know that having a group of them is way more trouble than it's worth (I'm female, so I can write that :P).

I don't read a lot of (or any, really) harem fiction, but I have watched some (probably too many, considering how fake I find them) harem anime, and I think the "personality-lacking sex slave" thing can be partially blamed on anime.

To conclude: I'm not a snob who thinks that all harem fictions are intrinsically bad, but I'm not someone who loves them and thinks they're intrinsically good. People should have some pride in their work and write good stories. Other people should actually value the stars they give out and not rate every story they like 5 stars even if it has problems.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#3
Generally, most of the characters I read on here fall under the Mary Sue concept. Doesn't make sense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[7]


Marty Stu or Gary Stu is a male variant on this trope

I don't even get started on tropes. Lets save that for some other month. My point is, that many new writers do fall into a very "Mary Sue" or "Marty Stu" sort of character with little to no realism and a generally perfect person. Any 'problems' they have are naturally countered quickly during the course of the story and turn out not to be an issue.

Dating seven women? Not a problem. I'll just smooth out their flat personalities with a few vague sentences and some posturing. Naturally my character has plus eighteen to charisma so they'll just believe him.


While I'm here...

Here's the tropes for Harems.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaremGenre

Think twice before using them.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#5
hmm indeed harems. well what can i say, there is not much to debate here actually, but i would like to throw in my own two cents.

first of all. a harem translates to a polygamous relationship between usually one male and several female. of course if the setting is a fantasy world and the author wishes that polygamy is a common trait of the world than it is completely fine for there to be harem.

but most young males on this site who write these stories get lazy with this genre and put effort into their series, and when confronted they opt to the good old 'fuck the haters' as you have said rather than actually trying to improve the quality of their works but using better grammar.

but lets say you fixed the grammar what then?

well then comes the most IMPORTANT part of the harem genre, it is the women (or in some rare cases men) involved in said harem, each one of them has to be very distinctively unique, they have to have their own quirk, good/bad sides specialties and so on. as you said in most series on this site with a harem it generally goes like this. 'she was the most beautiful woman i have seen'(and not usually so well spelled) and that's about it nothing more on the girl she ceases to exist as a person outside the M.C. and don't get me started on the enslaved female that has 100% loyalty to the mc, that is the HEIGHT of male insecurity and reflects the writer's own weak-mindedness and lack of effort.

for once i would like to see a actually good well thought out harem with character developments and interaction spanning over many volumes, instead of getting 19 girls in 8 chapter flat.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#6
Since there may be those who attack opinions here based what we post as authors, I will preface this by saying that a lot of characters in my stories are and will remain undeveloped. I only put time into developing characters I consider important, and so far, I am just beginning to develop the important ones. I don't see the point in extensive development of canon / plot fodder.

I'll be honest I find most published, let alone non-edited amateur, harem stories to be flat out weak.

I've never read Slavemancer or most of the other harem stories on this site, so I cannot comment them specifically. I did read part of DCoT thoguh, and honestly, based on the grammar, vocabulary and lack of consistency in the mechanics of how the world worked, I thought it was being written by a 12 or 13 year old. The author made a couple post that imply he should be 21+, which I find difficult to believe. It more gave me the impression that the best way to end that story is for the MC to wake up and say, "Damn, what a great wet dream! I still have a morning wood!"

The very few well done LN harems have semi-solid reasoning behind why the harem fodder is fixated on the MC at first sight. If your harem fodder is an rather one-dimensional psycho, there should a REASON WHY she is a rather one dimensional psycho. If the harem fodder amounts nothing more than a bunch of sex toys, the authors should just have the MCs buy a collection of Dutch Wife blow up doll.

If you want a novel with a female that can do nothing by service the MC sexually, drop these weak LN wanabe harem jokes and go read John Norman's Gor series. Actually scratch that, his female slaves have far too much in the way of background, character development, and functional thought processes to work for a DCoTesqe harem fan.

EDIT:
Okay, I tried to read Slavemancer, because it was specifically mentioned it in the OP.
I am traumatized, and it is baengi's fault.

After trying to read Slavemance, I have reiterate reading the Gor series, but anyone who is fawning over Slavemancer will probably hate Gor. Gor is not a LN, it is heroic Swords & Science with a heavy focus on the topics of slavery and sexual servitude.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#7
Personally i thought the problems in such stories existed even before poor execution of "willing suspension of disbelief". Personally, not a fan of Harem stories or Harem-like elements in general as it just doesn't work out well when people write it. Saying someone is "beautiful/handsome beyond compare" doesn't make me think anything of whoever you introduced( I had this EXACT same feeling when reading Legendary Moonlight Sculptor and Jeong Seoyoon's avatar description in Royal Road from Weed's point of view) because so far they are JUST a pretty looking shell of a human. Seems like her being mute and Weed thinking she would kill him for his loots was kinda designed specifically to cover up the lack of trying to actually make a realistic character in the realm of suspension of disbelief. Alas, I got off track from my main thoughts.

My main thoughts in 2 lines on this:

Harems are generally designed for the viewer/reader to pick a girl/guy and root them on with whoever the main character is that the story revolves around.

If you do not make the group of males/females have particular traits that are endearing to a reader/viewer to make them root for them to "win" a relationship with the main character, then your goal of writing/video making for a harem genre/sub genre has ultimately failed.

Now to get to the reason i posted for to start with. I really wanted to talk about this is because of the sub genre of harem, where someone has made a world, got a likely OP MC, they quest/do whatever, and some 30 or something chapters in find a damsel in distress/save kingdom and princess of said kingdom falls in love with the MC, etc. Personally, i rarely ever get to these sub genres as I've lost interest FAR back, largely between terrible grammar,predictable plot progression, and the MC being OP within 5-8 chapters while lacking in human emotion with no realistic compelling goal.

By the time any writer even starts the sub genre Harem, I've already given up on the whole thing. Think people should start with basics and stay with them for a while. Not all stories need a romance in them and they certainly do not need badly executed one.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#8
Sadly the harem tag on this site is synonymous with: It's bad, don't read it. I have yet to see a single harem tagged story which does a good job on the genre.

The main problem is that none of the harem authors bothers to develop the female characters.
They operate on the idea that the harem-tag alone justifies that the female characters fall for the main.
In most cases for no reason at all...

And let me tell you: braindead characters`= bad story.

But I admit that is hard to develop a working harem-story.
You would need to:

-build the main character.
-build the characters for the girls.
-build up the relationship of the females with the main character.
-build the relationships between the girls.
-explain why they tolerate each other.
-now you have to pack all that into an interesting story.
-now do all that without drifting off into boringness or losing your target.

Let's simply say that this is an almost impossible task for someone who doesn't have a lot of time to invest. Resulting in very bad FFs.


-->!Which doesn't mean that there are a few gems buried under all the rubbish
!<--

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#9
There can certainly be a lot of good harems, but unfortunately the most I've seen so far are terrible. When I find a good book and it's listed as harem, I usually pray for it to actually be a good harem.

Small rant:
Of what I've seen, harems usually have annoying girls who only serve the (ethereally beautiful/ridiculously overpowered) protagonist - for no reason. Also, the other females are simultaneously encouraging their relationship with the protagonist. I mean, shouldn't they feel somewhat jealous? Certain books set it up to be so that they can't - that I get. But when the male has five women hanging off of him, but they all just decide, "oh, let's just share him, cause, why not?" If they loved him, wouldn't they want him more to himself?

Ah... I agree with Andur, if someone could create a harem where the females had a reason to tolerate each other - as well as have actual personalities, rather than being 2-D... I would definitely try to read it.
https://i.imgur.com/tn8seB8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rrNfstk.jpg

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#10
In regards to Andur's post,mainly the bullet points in their post:

-build the main character.
-build the characters for the girls.
-build up the relationship of the females with the main character.
-build the relationships between the girls.
-explain why they tolerate each other.
-now you have to pack all that into an interesting story.
-now do all that without drifting off into boringness or losing your target.


Basically any harem needs tons of character development to even think of making it decent. But of all of these, even if the girls/guys each have a compelling reason to want to be in some sort of relationship with the male/female protagonist, it still causes large problems in trying to explaining why they tolerate each other. I'm not sure if in some (fictional) worlds monogamy is not the normal, but from what I've seen there isn't really a compelling argument in stories for why the girls/guys don't try to CONSTANTLY one-up their competition. You can be polite about it with the others, so long as everyone knows they are all competitors.

I'm not sure this occurs to the ones usually in the harem, at least not to the level needed to take it degree that seems serious enough . Although i guess if they did, the plot for who gets picked would then have to advance. And that's just bad for a writer who wants to write for as long as they
can, making the protagonist never truly pick a character.

Oh, and overpowered and super dense nice guy archetypes get really boring after a while. Yes, the former is used in harem with action added. and the latter super dense nice guy is usually put in harems with slice of life in high school setting. Both get some comedy added. But you can only do so much with those two kinds before they start to become defining archetypes of their genre.

*Note, while i am talking more about anime in general, my comments still hold to other mediums.*

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#11
The archetypes you are talking about are generally what I consider as bad.

It's the easy way to avoid character development. But a dense main character or love-blind heroines are exactly what kills any harem story. If we are talking strictly about the genre, then 99% of the existing harem stories are bullshit. And that's exactly for the reason of 2D characters.
People are often calling stories like Campione or Highschool DxD good ones. Let's take them as an example. They are aren't bad stories, but take a step back and look at the genre alone.

Take away the comedy and action from DxD. What are you left with? Certainly not a good harem story.
Take away the action and background-story from Campione. *headpalm* I mean... who would fall for a pure 100% idiot, no matter how strong he is? But he is a Campione and girls have to fall for that.... bla....



While these stories may be counted as harem, they don't do a good job on the genre.

They excel in other areas.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#12
@ Andur- Read Highschool DxD as High school of the Dead although im sure High school of dead would likely be considered in this as well.

The only thing that's mildly interesting in DxD is the main character and his desire for a harem. But the thing that bugs me is he tossed away the chance for a harem in the Season 2 by a "bad guy". So apparently its "I want a harem but i want to do it in a way i want to do it in" kinda fashion. It just got silly at that point.

Never did root on any girl either, Since Issei doesn't have any redeemable qualities. Most Main characters can at least cook well. He has literally nothing outside of his Dragon power.

I have not seen Campione though so i can't say anything about it.

But Infinite Stratos comes to mind when i think of harem. Densest MC ever. Just dying for a girl to say point blank "i like you. can i be your girlfriend?" but we cant have that happen can we? even a super dense MC could NOT misinterpret that!

Although i think the whole harem things comes down more to "What qualities would this particular person like on the Main character for me to fall for them? Is there a sequence of actions that would make me think they have these qualities for me to like them?" Cause when you start thinking about that, it gets REALLY difficult to have a good solid point of why someone likes someone.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#14
Well..... I wont say much about the grammar since mine sucks. FYI OP is French.... so? Britain is right on the other side of the canal. (Just saying)

I grew up in a country where you learn English as a self-defense mechanism. (As in knowing when a "Soutie" is bad mouthing you.)

So I am learning here and hopefully showing some improvement, however, using bad grammar pointed just at people who write harems is stupid. How many other fics on RRL have the same problem without the harem tag?


Second is the wish fulfillment, so he is writing a bad harem that is only meant to make his readers happy?
If it works for them, it works.


How many other wish fulfillment fics are there without the harem tag? OP guys that never lose and have the best looks, or looks like a troll but somehow gets the girl?

On the contrary, writing a believable harem is bloody difficult. "As for woman will never share a man." Well that's true IN REAL LIFE(under normal circumstances), are we writing biographies here? Maybe I missed something and this is where people write history books based on facts.

BTW in history there are plenty examples of harems. In fact 1 out of every two-hundred males on the planet, today has the Gheghis Khan gene and that's DIRECT descent, they traced the Y chromosome and this can only be passed down from father to son. (You do the math.)

There is a culture right here in Africa. The Zulu tribe, hell even our president has more than one wife at the moment, even though its against our law. The wives aren't complaining though, nor are they forced. They get nice cars, nice houses and live the life. Why because they get security, be it financial or physical its there.

My point is -Most of the things mentioned against harems, can be mentioned about fic's without them as well.


I don't support having more than one wife, so don't get me wrong. I thought writing a harem would be fun.... well its not. I have to research and think more on how my characters will interact, plus I don't like weak woman so no damsels here. Meaning I have to let them grow as my MC does, in the meantime they will become emotional and physical support for my hero while playing an integral role in the story all on their own. Besides that are their wants, needs and personalities. Its like having more than one hero to write about. After this i doubt I will write another harem.

If anyone reading this is thinking of writing one, I strongly suggest you re-think it and make sure you are up for it.
Read my fic or..... (¬¦_¦)=/????/’?’? ? ??? ?? ??.

Sky Prince- Book 1 Battle for Atlantia



RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#15
You see, harems are just wish-fulfillment. That's all it is.

Sure, not all harems are bad. Most of them are, however, there are a few that are written in a way that shows that it's not a harem but it's tagged as one. In my opinion, even in a fantasy world, one lame-ass dude having more than one girl (or even one) be interested in him is stupid.  If the MC is really attractive or something, then maybe. But a lot of times, from what I've seen, girls will leave a guy that's boring even if he is attractive.

So yea. 

Harem is bad. Get it away. Away I say!

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#16
'Mr Sir' pid='620076' dateline='1461083710' Wrote: Well..... I wont say much about the grammar since mine sucks. FYI OP is French.... so? Britain is right on the other side of the canal. (Just saying)

I grew up in a country where you learn English as a self-defense mechanism. (As in knowing when a "Soutie" is bad mouthing you.)

So I am learning here and hopefully showing some improvement, however, using bad grammar pointed just at people who write harems is stupid. How many other fics on RRL have the same problem without the harem tag?


Second is the wish fulfillment, so he is writing a bad harem that is only meant to make his readers happy?
If it works for them, it works.


How many other wish fulfillment fics are there without the harem tag? OP guys that never lose and have the best looks, or looks like a troll but somehow gets the girl?

On the contrary, writing a believable harem is bloody difficult. "As for woman will never share a man." Well that's true IN REAL LIFE(under normal circumstances), are we writing biographies here? Maybe I missed something and this is where people write history books based on facts.

BTW in history there are plenty examples of harems. In fact 1 out of every two-hundred males on the planet, today has the Gheghis Khan gene and that's DIRECT descent, they traced the Y chromosome and this can only be passed down from father to son. (You do the math.)

There is a culture right here in Africa. The Zulu tribe, hell even our president has more than one wife at the moment, even though its against our law. The wives aren't complaining though, nor are they forced. They get nice cars, nice houses and live the life. Why because they get security, be it financial or physical its there.

My point is -Most of the things mentioned against harems, can be mentioned about fic's without them as well.


I don't support having more than one wife, so don't get me wrong. I thought writing a harem would be fun.... well its not. I have to research and think more on how my characters will interact, plus I don't like weak woman so no damsels here. Meaning I have to let them grow as my MC does, in the meantime they will become emotional and physical support for my hero while playing an integral role in the story all on their own. Besides that are their wants, needs and personalities. Its like having more than one hero to write about. After this i doubt I will write another harem.

If anyone reading this is thinking of writing one, I strongly suggest you re-think it and make sure you are up for it.

Uiteindelik! Iemand wat uit die selfde land as ek kom! As 'n mede landgenoot stuur ek groete!

En ek stem saam met die punt dat harem fantasie, amper net soos ander literere werke behandel moet word. Ek meen, die indruk is amper dat harem spesiaal is, dat dit nie soos ander fantasie behandel moet word nie, wat absoluut twak is. Dit moet presies die selfde hanteer word as ander fantasie. Karakters moet goed wees en als moet geloofwaardig wees.

En flip, jy's braaf om so 'n moeilike taak te takel. Al die verskillende karakters wat almal gebalanseer moet word teen mekaar... Ek sal mal gaan.

En net nog een ding.
Zuma, ons liewe president, sal die perfekte harem MC wees. Dink net: geld, krag en geen morele waardes! Die storie skryf sommer homself.

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#17
Dude, that's pretty rude to just start in a different language. So for all tjhose that want to know what General Rincewind said:

Finally, someone from the same country. As a fellow countryman, I salu te you. 

I agree that the harem fantasy genre should be treated like any other literature. I mean, I get the impression that Harem is more special, that should not be treated like other fantasy stories, which is BS.The Harem should be treated like all other fantasy stories : Characters have to be good and believable. 

and you are so brave to start the hard task of creating all these characters and balancing it al out. 
And something about the President of SA being the perfect Harem MC. 
that story practically writes itself.
__

@ generalrincewind, stick to the language on the forum pls

RE: The harem setting: why it 's not an excuse to write a crappy story

#20
"Harem" is one of that tags that seems to connotate more than what it actually means.  

See the tag, and instantly thoughts of idiot male hero, bumbling around, tripping over and stripping female characters pops into mind.  (To Love-Ru anyone?)  Either you like that, or you don't...

But what is a "harem" exactly?  It's simply one person with multiple people who see them as a valid love interest.

A married man, with a mistresses on the side, has a "harem".  A guy who's two-timing his girlfriend has a "harem".  In neither case, does it mean he'll *keep* that "harem" should they find out about each other, but he has one until he doesn't; just like he's married, until he's not.

Historically, harems weren't that rare.  Lots of people in power and authority had multiple wives.  Those that had a single "wife" had multiple mistresses.  There's several cultures around the world today that allow such relationships.

Inherently, they're not wrong to put into a story.  Done with one-dimensional characters, they're rather dull and boring -- but that holds true for any character, in any genre.  Give them life.  Personality.  Ego and desires.

As long as the members of a harem aren't simply single-dimensional characters only meant to give the object of their affection bragging/bouncing rights, I have no problem with them.