Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#1
This might be a kinda serious-ish debate but I was wondering if I was the only one who thought that more stories should incorporate real world injustices or debates or questions within their story-lines. That is to say, should there be a "moral" to a story or should it, at the very least, invoke some kind of debate (about something serious like racial or lgbt rights, torture, death other philosophical questions etc) or should this be avoided at all costs?

Disclaimer: This thread is NOT about whether these views or morals are correct, but about whether writers (in this community and beyond) should try to more actively incorporate them into their stories. This doesn't have to be an active 'shove it down your reader's throat' kinda thing, but more along the lines of "Hayao Miyazaki films featuring strong, independent female characters like princess mononoke or kiki or chihiro" and "worm by wildbow featuring a racially diverse cast of characters." Also, this can be achieved through parallels (like racial discrimination and divisiveness in the world of "The Golden Wordmaster" being portrayed through fantasy races)

My view: We should do so because writing fiction should be about more than having a laugh or reading about an awesome fight. Fiction should be a part of societal discourse, albeit in an artistic way that is not as blunt as it is in non-fiction writing. Again, not every fiction should be this heavy and I'm not arguing for inserting "social justice warriors" everywhere, but it would be nice to see more stories with, well...a point?

Any thoughts on that? Especially from the perspective of web novels and web fiction (since there aren't a lot of instances of this sort of question being asked about web novels)
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#2
For me if a story doesn't have any kind of moral then I will never recommend it to anyone. I do agree with stories having more serious questions but the problem is that not everyone can execute it properly. Most of people that write here are complete amateurs so they prefer to not include serious questions. Also everyone has different views and not everyone can properly explain them (for example me) which may lead to unwanted hate or accusations.
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#3
But it doesn't have to be a really difficult question nor does there have to be an answer. But shouldn't writers (even new ones) try to include something of significance in their story? Take a very simple moral question like "Is it ever okay to kill and if so, when?" and regardless of whether you actually give an answer to it, shouldn't you at least raise it rather than go "Oh, I killed someone!"
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#4
Uhm...this is a quite interesting point of view. Although I am still writing my novel, it touches many of themes of the real word we live in. 

Despite of my novel being set in a Magical Fantasy world (You can see it in my signature!), it is not that "unrealistic", and I try that every of the races have a "Humanish" problem.  And as @WhoCares have stated before, I include them trying to add some significance to the whole writing besides the main plot. 

I must point out that it is not necessary to be taken THAT serious, but it is good for make people who read our work to make them think about it, at least think about it since many will not even care to notice those details on the stories.

I would love to explain more my points but some would be giga-spoilerinos haha. But I support that we, writers should add these problematics, maybe we all going to reach a different "understanding", about the same point but that is the interesting part, no?
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#5
Interesting. It could be used to entice the reader into reading a story, develop plot, setting, and etc. It should be added in my opinion and I believe it should not be half-assed as it can be...undesirable for readers.
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#6
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and say that it should not. I think having it as a requirement is simply putting a constraint on an author's potential. It all comes down to what the point of the story is. If the point of the story is to get across a certain viewpoint, then fine; go ahead and add it.

But I think there are many reasons to write a story. An author could write something simply for entertainment purposes, to explore the craft, or to get across a message. I don't think any one of these reasons is superior to the others. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. An entertaining story draws readers to the craft; an exploratory story stretches its limits; and a theme-based story helps readers see the world in a new light.

Now, I don't think a story has to be purely one of these three. It can be a combination of them. You could have a story that's both entertaining and focuses on a theme. My story, Reapers of Eden, is kind of like this. Its main focus is on entertainment, but it strongly explores the theme of social roles conflicting against morality. The theme is subtle though, so it doesn't distract from the entertainment value.

And herein lies a key point: if a strong theme must be included, it is often a good idea to do so subtly. Otherwise, you no longer have a story; you have a sermon.

Anyways, I don't believe it should be a requirement because that would simply impose a limit, and I think fiction should be limitless.

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#7
I don't think it's necessary to actively put morals into a story. If your writing is deep enough and your characters strong enough, your beliefs and views will naturally come out in your stories, even if it's written for "pure entertainment" purposes.

If a story wants to feel realistic, it will naturally deal with human issues and human conflicts.

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#8
@Mech Agreed mech, we will almost certainly reach different conclusions and that is the fun of it! But a different question now: do you think a writer should lead their reader towards a particular conclusion? Maybe not directly, but perhaps with a nudge here and a nudge there?

@I4M Agreed on the half-assed bit. If you're going to do it, don't drop elements of it here and there without developing it otherwise not only is there no point, but it can be pretty off-putting for readers.

@reaper Glad someone actually disagreed (even if you're just trying to be the devil's advocate for fun :P ) Like I said before, I don't think it should be a requirement but I do believe that every good story should have one. And I believe an exploratory story is, in a way, the same as one seeking to make/explore a point. It's effectively the same thing but you're making a point about writing/literature/a genre rather than a social/political/economic/philosophical idea etc. 

@unice I agree, one's beliefs will always affect a story but I still think there should be an active effort to incorporate it into your stories. What I mean by this is that rather than your characters passively acting in a way that suggests certain viewpoints, your characters should actively grapple with moral questions or be affected by social issues etc. Referring to I4M's comment above, it might seem "half-assed" if it's done passively.
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#9
Pretty muich was ninja'd by this:

'unice5656' pid='734604' dateline='1469324288' Wrote: I don't think it's necessary to actively put morals into a story. If your writing is deep enough and your characters strong enough, your beliefs and views will naturally come out in your stories, even if it's written for "pure entertainment" purposes.


In the past, I used to think it's important to ensure that my stories had some sort of "moral" in them. But after writing enough, I realized that regardless of whether I'm conscious of it - my stories naturally end up with some sort of theme/moral.

I assume the topic raised because there are many stories on RRL which use "wish-fulfillment" elements and just want to have fun. These stories may not contain anything obvious that shouts "moral!", but I think each writer still addresses the topics he's most familiar with and deals with them in one way or another.
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#10
In a way, I feel that it'd be a nice addition, but it is not always necessary to create an enjoyable story. Just as romance doesn't have to include sex to make a good read, games don't have to deal with real life to make an enjoyable adventure. Additionally, as I believe another has already said, very few can integrate such heavy topics well into their stories. Games are meant to be fun, enjoyable things so it's no problem to take a step back and ignore what is wrong in the world once in a while.
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#11
I'm playing the tentacles' advocate.

I don't think moral questions needed to be raised, plus they're hardly questions in the first place because there is always a second part. In fact, I think what most authors do is giving their opinions through a story, they are the ones answering their own questions after all. I'm only talking about literature works of course.

For example :
"Is killing good or bad?" the author wrote. There is this thing that follows right after, "this is what the character X choose."
Or "Is communism good or bad? This country choose this and it works!"
etc.

In the case of picking of both options, we'd just bash the work as for-entertainment-purpose or give a 'meh, it's only the author's opinion' glance. And if no answer was given, we'd call the writer an ass for wasting our time with a plot line that ends in the middle of nowhere.

In short, don't try to be deep since you are in for some criticisms anyway. Just pick a problem you like and write from it.

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#12
Just to add a little on what people are saying. My views are rather simple. Write what you want to write.

I really believe this in its simplest sense. If you want your story to have a moral surrounding it, and really explore social issues through your writing, then go for it.

if you want to just tell an adventure of some guy or girl having fun in a world filled with it, then go for it.

Same with any type of story rendition you could ever think of. Simply go for it. I hate the idea of attempting to confine writers into 'you should incorporate this' or 'this should be in your story', because then it isn't their story. It's a part of what you believe, and what you want out of a story.

A writer should always have the freedom to express their ideas in their own way, no matter what. That is what I believe.

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#13
'WhoCares' pid='734876' dateline='1469343215' Wrote: @unice I agree, one's beliefs will always affect a story but I still think there should be an active effort to incorporate it into your stories. What I mean by this is that rather than your characters passively acting in a way that suggests certain viewpoints, your characters should actively grapple with moral questions or be affected by social issues etc. Referring to I4M's comment above, it might seem "half-assed" if it's done passively.

I really don't think characters need to actively grapple with moral questions in every story. It leads to a very angsty, teenager-coming-of-age-style story, which isn't bad, but shouldn't encompass all of fiction.

Once in a while, people want to read something relaxing, something funny, something light-hearted. 

Sometimes I want characters who have their lives figured out. Okay, almost all the time, and generally, the characters I write are emotionally stable, with a strong sense of who they are and what they believe in. That doesn't mean anything I write is "half-assed" in any way.

I also want to point something out that people don't seem to understand in terms of human psychology. Behavioural change is not driven primarily by morals or education. Generally, people don't change because it's the "right" thing to do. Some will, but if you want everyone to change, this is done by "normalizing" the new behaviour.

You want people to exercise, eat right, and maintain a healthy body weight? This isn't done by telling them all the bad things that will happen to them if they don't do what you want. This is done by making a plan that's easy to stick to, a routine that's easy to fall into, and most of all by getting all the friends and family involved so that the new, healthy behaviour is now the "normal" behaviour.

The same goes for any social issue. You want to deal with something like racism in your writing? You can go Route A, where a character suffers immensely due to it. You'll provoke feelings of empathy towards and outrage for that character. Or you can go Route B, where characters of different races get along like it's the most normal thing in the entire world. You won't hit people's emotional centres and make them applaud you for bravely facing social issues head-on, but I think you do something more important: you normalize a world where racism simply isn't a thing.

Don't get me wrong; Route A is important because it gives us heroes that overcome prejudices and inspire change. I just think Route B doesn't get enough credit.

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#14
@darkclaymore yes, this thread was primarily raised because of the prevalence of wish fulfillment stories with no other purpose to them. Like I said in the original post, I'm not saying that every story should have a moral or that you can't naturally incorporate your own beliefs and values into your work or that those beliefs and values won't influence your work anyways, but I do think that writers should actively choose to include some sort of message in their stories to give them a drive/purpose beyond whatever morals are being passively portrayed.

@j0nn0 agreed, but I feel that web fiction, overall, caters almost exclusively to 'light' stories with very few stories exploring 'heavy' concepts or ideas. That is not to say that those lighter stories aren't enjoyable, I just mean I wish there were more of the other kind too.

@out of this That example is, in my opinion, a criticism of the narrow mindedness of readers rather than something writers should avoid. Again, I don't expect everyone to go read Machiavelli's The Prince or Tolstoy's War and Peace, but I do believe that this kind of "trying to do something like this will result in criticism" thinking inhibits a writer's creativity and, more importantly, ensures that the readers will not be exposed to heavier concepts. What I mean is, if we all refrained from including serious questions in our stories and people drift more and more towards web novels and ebooks then we could eventually end up in an environment where the only kinds of stories that people like are light, wish fulfillment stories. Readers need to grow and learn just as much as writers do and including serious questions into stories is, in my opinion, a brilliant way to help readers grow and improve on an individual level.

@shiftycake Of course, like I said, there is no need to incorporate serious questions into every story. Some stories are meant to be light and relaxing and rightly so. However, this question was raised because I feel that there is a distinct lack of stories that ask 'serious' questions or deal with 'serious' issues, on the internet.

@unice I disagree. I don't think it leads to angsty-teen-coming-of-age stories, those are just a part of the larger group of stories that ask serious questions. Secondly, they don't have to actively grapple with moral questions and nor do I believe that that should happen in every story, but I do believe that more stories could be written with a distinct moral purpose or viewpoint in mind. And I agree, that sort of passive normalization of serious social issues is a great thing and it should be done more often. But, I don't think this sort of situation usually arises unless the writer actively thinks about it and chooses to address it in this manner and I also believe that it is another form of asking a serious question in a story (by portraying a possible alternative to the status quo of the real world.) And yeah, it is nice to read about emotionally stable characters but that doesn't mean that those emotionally stable characters can't face moral/ethical dilemmas or live in a world that forces them to confront those sort of questions.

Anyways, I wonder if other people believe that there is a lack of web novels that ask these sort of serious questions (since this thread wasn't about whether or not all writers should incorporate serious questions into their stories, but whether more writers should do so i.e. whether you think there is a lack of 'heavy' stories in webfiction.)
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#15
'WhoCares' pid='736618' dateline='1469477956' Wrote: Anyways, I wonder if other people believe that there is a lack of web novels that ask these sort of serious questions (since this thread wasn't about whether or not all writers should incorporate serious questions into their stories, but whether more writers should do so i.e. whether you think there is a lack of 'heavy' stories in webfiction.)

It's a trend for web novels to be edgy on the most simple stuffs like violence or sex.

But again, it is like fast food. One do not eat it to develop a good taste or to become a gourmet. If one person's personality ends up bent by overdosing these stories, it's their fault for not choosing the right thing to eat. The sellers are doing their job.
I'm believe peoples can't change just from others telling them something. Only time and pain and their own effort grows them. Out of these three, a writer can only give the readers pain (by showing problems). Either you offer some values, or don't at all.

My taste is leaned toward the difficult side. High quality things are enjoyable in the sheer efforts got put into them, but they are costly and hard to make. Especially in a genre like web novel. However, the act of calling themselves serious works but not going through professional filtering is already something dubiously half-ass, so the effort to make or search for a good web novel that shows deep problems is somewhat wrong in the first place, I think? Is it like that? Either way, the standard to judge these works is nothing like bookshelf novels.

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#16
I would say that depends on what your aim is while writing your story. If you story is only meant to make a few people laugh or kill some time, any bigger questions may be wrongly placed there. However if you want to make your reader
think or if a person in your story has these ideas as core of their personality then it might even be beneficial to your story. I would like to point out that i try to avoid stories that only revolve around a single idea, if the author has managed to convince me in three chapters, what use is it to read the remaining 7?

At least that is my take on the problem
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#17
@Out of this I disagree. Some forms of webnovels may be fast food, but I think there can be really transcendental works that push the boundaries of literature in a way that published stories just can't (Overseer, for example) And I agree, it is a reader's fault if they aren't well read but at the same time, I think that our community of webfiction readers can develop and mature if the writers also include serious questions in their stories. And I agree, they are not professionally edited and won't be anywhere near as refined as published works. But, they can take more chances, experiment with formatting, explore the boundaries of literature and raise serious questions in ways that only the flexibility of the internet can allow.

@Dr_Dac I don't think any story (other than one shots or short stories) focuses on just one idea. They usually have a bunch of different ideas floating around in them, just like in any other form of art. And if the author has convinced you in three chapters, you must've either already kinda believed them since the start. Also, the point isn't to convince you about something or to preach or anything. The point of a good story is to present an idea for the reader to explore and then evaluate on their own. Even if the author does give you their answer, no one will ever expect you to stick with that answer without evaluating it on your own.

Maybe I should rephrase this a bit. It's not about asking "serious questions," it's about starting "serious conversations."
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RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#18
Maybe I should rephrase this a bit. It's not about asking "serious questions," it's about starting "serious conversations."
[/quote]

I think all stories naturally raise discuss and evaluate serious topics, the difference is that some topics are more obvious than others.

CS Lewis for instance raises the issues of sin, betrayal and faith throughout all his Narnia novels, to adults and Christians they can be taken as serious stories with deep significance, but to the average reader they are just stories and to non-Christians these topics are largely irrelevant.

Kuro no Maou follows the traditional vein of most Japanese light novels where Characters that are normally righteous or good are portrayed as evil, the Church representing some form of evil colonialism where the "apostles" are killing machines and demonic races are actually the "good guys". 

Re: Monster promotes a survival of the fittest ethos, probably the most common ideology you find, where survival justifies all actions and ultimately traditionally evil characters are again portrayed as good.

A lot of stories try to be amoral, by simply "telling a story" but that in itself promotes a moral idea, you can take Mushoku Tensei as a great example of this. He just wants to be free and live his life, he wants to have kids and have a satisfying life, that's his goal. Totally honest, that's one of the best web novels I've ever read, there's just such a sense of satisfaction when he dies and meets Hitogami for the last time before vanishing.  So epic, but moving on.

There's a lot of ideas behind that, reincarnation, "what is the good life" and what does it mean to be happy. But the author might not have set out to promote those ideas, but the characters in a sense represent an authors thinking (provided they like them and would do what they would do). Fantasy novels fundamentally tell me that people are unhappy with a magic-less harem-less world. That says a lot about human nature and what the good life is.

Someone posted and (I agree with the statement) and will end with what I remember them saying, "I find my stories naturally have my deep ideas and convictions." (something along those lines)

To summarize, all stories can start a discussion provided the author puts their heart in the story, I mean, you don't want to take people out of context and put words in their mouths right? I think that most light novels address the question of religion and God and usually dismiss Him as either dead or irrelevant, or  cast "Churchish Religiousish Organizations" as anti-science, backwards etc.
That's a conversation you can start after reading almost any Light Novel. 

By the way my favorite light novel on this site is Savage Divinity (shout out to RuffWriter) and there are so many issues you can raise from that novel as well. 

But at the same time, I don't think any Web Novel I've read actually wrestles with any issue as much as they fabricate a world and give their opinion. That is to say, I don't think you see both sides of a serious issue really represented accurately, but I have been considering reading Overseer so that might change my mind. This is probably because most people don't wrestle with major issues too much, usually our minds are pretty made up. So, you can find a lot of opinions on serious topics in Web Novels but there isn't a conversation about those opinions in that Web Novel... I guess you've started the conversation for us :).

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#19
One thing I’d like to add on a more personal note is that the reason I started looking at web fiction to begin with was its lack of standards. A lot of traditional fiction follows the whole “you must write serious stories” way of thinking. It’s touted as a standard for quality assurance, but it also leads to an elitist culture. Commercial fiction is filtered to sell, so sometimes it comes off as sterile to me. A lot of it has this whole “Read me, I’m deep!” sort of feeling. It becomes pretty predictable after a while. Often, I find that a lot of supposedly-deep fiction is only superficially deep.

Web fiction, on the other hand, has the potential to be very unpredictable. It doesn’t follow any rules or standards. There’s a whole lot of pure, unfiltered emotion. It’s imperfect, organic, and chaotic, and to me, that’s more true to life than something written to sell.

Now, I’m not saying either one is better than the other. They both have their strengths. When I want to write something serious, I write traditional fiction, but if I want to write something without having to worry about these rules, I’ll write web fiction. I can get away with things in web fiction that I couldn’t in traditional fiction. As a result, I find that I can write with more personality.

I just don’t want to see web fiction become exactly like traditional fiction. They should remain their own separate entities. I think the more we try to write with this question in mind, the more the lines between the two start to blur. As the Android commercials put it so aptly, “Be together. Not the same.”

RE: Should serious (real world) questions be raised more often in stories?

#20
'WhoCares' pid='734229' dateline='1469294555' Wrote: This might be a kinda serious-ish debate but I was wondering if I was the only one who thought that more stories should incorporate real world injustices or debates or questions within their story-lines. That is to say, should there be a "moral" to a story or should it, at the very least, invoke some kind of debate (about something serious like racial or lgbt rights, torture, death other philosophical questions etc) or should this be avoided at all costs?

I think it depends on the setting. That said, I don't think avoiding things at all costs is ever the answer. Someone needs to ask those questions and start those conversations, and as writers we're in a good position to do so.

Literature can be a great way to address real-world issues, but if someone is writing a story that isn't set in our world...it can feel forced. Logic would dictate that a different world would suffer some of the same problems ours does, but they would also have their own unique issues. If said made-up world had exactly all of our world's issues, I would question why the author didn't just write a story set on modern day Earth.

However, if the author can intermingle some of our world's issues with the unique issues of a different world, I think they should do so.

For me, it's not really a question of whether or not we should do it. It's more of a question of...which of those issues will make sense in the world I've created? Which cultures would have those issues? Which of those issues are global instead of cultural?

Racial issues, for example, could easily be global issues. Something like LGBT rights might not make sense in some cultures though - for example a country of Incubi and Succubae is probably going to be more sexually liberal than other countries. As such, they are more likely to embrace non-hetero sexualities.

The fun thing with that though, is an author could turn that assumption on its head and make Incubi/Succubae extremely anti-LGBT.

Something like torture? Other races/cultures could have entirely different views on torture than we do in the real world. There's tons of ways to utilize people's perceptions on topics and issues through narrative if that's your goal. We're in a position to make people think, as long as we can make the nuances of our stories believable.
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