Regarding plot armor.

#1
well, i want to bring forth a topic of debate that i found rather silly in the last few weeks. Go to any xianxia novel being translated out there. i guarantee you will find at the very least one comment regarding the protagonist's ''plot armor''. and this is not exclusive to xianxia or even chinese novels in general you find it everywhere.

Now what is ''plot armor'' well plot is obvious and armor is obvious as well. it just refers to how some key characters in stories have protection from any dire consequences because of the plot, or rather their role in the plot. you can't have a heroine die at the hands of some bandits in some forest now can you? well actually you can depending on the type of story you are writing but it is generally not done. this is of course an extreme example, but a more common example would be say a xianxia protagonist travelling down a mysterious cave and finding a rare artifact that boosts his power while being chased nonchalantly by an expert and thus fending said expert off.

i have not explained it too well but i am sure most of you are familiar with what it is. I just find the very idea of plot armor just plain silly. coincidences and lucky encounters are a fact of life and even more so in a story. we can all agree that all story protagonists are unique in some way, i mean they have to be for them to be a protagonist at all. when writing a fantasy one is writing usually about the hero with the dragon slaying sword not the villager A who died due to a bandit raid. and what separates villager A from the hero? coincidences and plot armor.

i may have not been clear up to this point but to put in simple terms, i am not denying the existence of plot armor i am just arguing it is a necessary element of story-telling and the degree in which it is used varies from author to author but ultimately one shouldn't consider it inherently bad.

It is just a matter of preference, some protagonists move the story forward and make their own fortune, while others are nurtured by the world and luck.

I also believe deus ex machina runs along the same vein. let us be honest some writers will use it because they are just bored with their stories and i will admit that a deus ex machina ending will always be inferior to an ending hinted on in chapter 1, or one where the whole story built up to. That may sound a bit hypocritical considering what the whole thread is about but that is just my own bias towards a well packed in story.

Anyways i believe all stories have deus ex machina no matter what. but it usually varies between direct and indirect D.E.M and whether one has it in the ending or not. a reader will always want to feel as if all his effforts reading the story and paying attention to minor details will pay off towards the end and a deus ex machina just pummels the sanctification from finishing a story to dust. those usually well praised classics also have a D.E.M but it is just an indirect kind. a hero find a piece of paper with the name of an inn on, he goes there and it filled with vampires, and the last one spouts nonesense like ''you will never find the sword''. which sword? the one he will need to defeat the dragon of course! so you see, all stories in some shape or form have deus ex machina, you just cannot have a story without some chance happening or intervention from divine agency. so as for all things moderation is the key.

what do you think about plot armor?

RE: Regarding plot armor.

#4
Someone mention plot armor in your story huh? tsk tsk tsk. Well, it will happen sooner or later. I mean people need to bitch about something and plot armor is just an easy scapegoat to many. 

Of course every story will have one, even George RR martin have some despite killing a lot of his character in an unexpected ways. I guess it's just a matter of emersion. If the readers are not into your story then they will find a lot of plot armor regardless of what you do. It doesn't matter if the author or the scriptwriter already prepared it in advance, someone will shout plot armor!

In Karate kid, someone will say how lucky the dude is because his sensei taught him that one special kick move that he can used if someone break his foot.

Or how lucky the kids are in ET to get an alien just small enough to be carried in a bike and not an alien as big as chewbacca.

I mean no one expects Naruto to die because the name of the freaking manga is "Naruto."

don't worry about it, just keep writing.
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#5
Plot armor, D.E.M., magical hand that does things, doing it for teh lulz, one of them will happen eventually. I mean, nobody reads a story about normal life where nothing happens... Right? (Slice of life, and yes I read it) Generally, something special has to happen or be about the MC to draw most readers.

Anyways, it provides a form of insurance for the core characters and impetus towards plot progression. When not overly done, it is a great story device. When overused, people tend to catch on and dislike it, though that may not exactly be the case sometimes. Sorry you crazy cultivators, but no, those pills you found in that one conveniently placed ancient ruins and that were given by that one old guy who just happened to be a master at "cultivating" and can easily enough be created from those plans you find on the side of the road don't give you a power boost. They're just drugs and make you think they do.
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#6
They all exist when you write a story because it's story you craft so things go the way you wanted to go rather than depending on the billions of variable that effect stuff in the real world. Its only bad when the even is just stupid and makes no sense. Running away from bad guy and enter hidden temple? Convient? Sure but still possible. Goddess comes out of no where to save you then marries you? That's plan dumb. So depends how much its used and how often its used.
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#7
I think all characters have minimum plot armor. Otherwise the story couldn't progress since they would keep dying when put into dangerous situations.

It is more about keeping up the illusion that the characters can die and risk is real. Even if that risk does not exist from a writer perspective, it should exist from a reader perspective.


For things like too convenience and coincidence , the blame goes to the writer for not making a basic outline from start to end.

RE: Regarding plot armor.

#8
I'm a 24 years old male and if I tell you my real life story from birth until the present, you'll think that I have a thick plot armor...

There are so many things that should've killed me and yet here I am... I'm still ali
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#9
I heard this term thrown around a few times as of late.  I always thought 'plot armor' referred to how strong your actual plot was and if readers could shoot holes in it or not... lol.  Thanks for the definition.  Now I am informed ;)
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#10
I'll agree with Blaise about it all coming down to execution. It won't really be plot armour if you show a character carry a concealed dagger throughout the story and in the last awesome battle stab it into the monster's eye when all hope was lost.

It is plot armour if you show the character in dire straits and lo! he pulls out a surprise dagger from somewhere! he has been carrying one from day one!
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#11
Someone does not necessarily have to die although having an important person suddenly die makes it very interesting and keeps the reader guessing while letting them hold the idea of mortality..... or it just makes some readers hate you to the extent that you should go die.

What changes this "plot armour" thingy you speak of will most definitely be consequences. If a guy suddenly gets a power up there should be some draw back that balances it. Or maybe he had to go through emotional hell to get it, but consequences will be his character has changed. Most Xianxia deal with this by continually throwing stronger enemies at the MC. He got a super cutter sword! So now someone in the heavenly level of heaven that is heavenly cant kill him. Shiiiit here is someone in the heavenly level of super heavenly heaven he cant beat. (cos it has super in it.)

Guy gets beaten, spits out bucket loads of blood. Somehow gets away and now.... its on, yeah its time for revenge! For the honor of our honor that is heavenly!

Guy either levels up or finds some kind of thing that once again makes it possible to beat the SUPER heavenly level. There are no consequences, no mental affects except he now wants revenge.... again.

Sure some of them make for a good read, but in two or three years will you actually remember the name of the MC what he did and why?(I honestly wont)



In my OPINION to write a truly great story, you need an MC that gets broken in more ways than one where your reader has no idea how he will get back up and its our job to figure this out while making it believable.  Where the MC's choices have real consequences on himself and those surrounding them and I don't just mean they get kidnapped he beats everyone and yay everyone is happy I mean emotional stuff.
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#12
Plot armor is tough. The best way is to make sure the main character does not succeed at everything. The stronger the set backs the more people will believe in the story. It can be emotional or physical, just as long as the MC does not succeed. That is the problem with most of the stories they are Sword Art Online repackaged, wish fulfillment, type of stories.

The main character gets a harem and the women never argue. He trains and masters everything perfectly. He looks for a secret lost item and masters the one item that defeats almost everything else. You can strip away the plot armor pretty easily. The harem gets annoyed at how women are in it and mutilate the MC and go off with someone else. The MC learns a completely useless skill from an old man on a mountain while thinking it is awesome. The item takes fingers as payment.

All good stories have obstacles. The trick is to over coming them in a believable manner. As long as you can do that, plot armor is not that big of a deal. The hard part is if you keep sending people into mortal peril and no one dies. Death is an absolute in most cases but does allow the story to develop in a different direction.
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#13
"
Another way to look at it is that amazing things don't happen to the main characters because they're the main characters — rather, they're the main characters because amazing things happen to them. If they weren't remarkable people with remarkable feats and tales to their name, there wouldn't be a story about them and you wouldn't be hearing it in the first place.
"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality


'WhoCares' pid='739796' dateline='1469724756' Wrote: I don't think every story has DEM or plot armor (most webnovels do have them though.)
However, I don't think luck and coincidences should constitute plot armor. As long as it's believable and didn't come out of the blue, I don't think it counts as DEM or plot armor.
I'm only replying, because I hold you in high respect.
What do you think of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#14
It definitely comes down to execution. And for good execution, it's always jokingly been a saying of mine that 'You can get away with anything in writing as long as you foreshadow it.' Your protagonist does need to have that one lucky knife, you need that Chekhov's gun and the sooner the better.

Both plot armor and Deus ex Machinas tend to be specifically negative terms. I'd say they're words to describe failure with unintelligent protagonists and plot. No accounting for whiny readers. That said, they are kind of unavoidable. And as you pointed out, almost all of us are dumb enough to have nearly died at some point.

In my first novella, I tried to deal with both these problems when the MC was shot. For that challenge, they employed wit, I employed plot and armor. Because, on the one hand, they were shot in a very convenient area. That's, I think, where plot armor comes into full force. When our heroes are shot, stabbed, or thrown from a cliff, they'll always have luck. That's a long-standing tool of suspense. How will they survive! Well, there's a river at the bottom of that ravine.

Better to make our heroes lucky or smart, than to hand the villain the idiot-ball. Readers spot that a mile off. 

Continuing. On the other hand, my protagonist was smart. He knew how to stay alive and escaped for a breath. That said, he wasn't just going to get better from a gunshot. Plot was important. As, for the entirety of the book, I'd been hinting at a group behind the scenes that could save them. They then used wit to tap that resource, causing their own salvation.

Possible downside to this method is perhaps convoluted plot. When you want to avoid plot-armor using intelligent characters, virtually everyone ends up having a plan or a scheme for everything. But it's been fun to write.

Great topic, great community, by the way. Great to join.
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#15
Authors be like: MC in dire situation? No worrys! With just a click of fingers, he will be safe! So what if all the gods of that world are angry with him? I AM THE TRUE UTMOST GOD!!! I can just use all those impossible deus ex machinas to save the MC anytime! So go guck those acheholes!!! The story shall flow by my way, or else I will reconsider to eradicate all sorts of Pain-in-the-Acrhse for the MC in one go!!

MC (who's ignorant about the Utmost God's doings) be like: The Divine Lightning (i.e the Utmost God's 'gifted' megapower to the MC) had such immense strength! It actually erased the whole valley with all those acheholes! I am really 'lucky' to have this treasure within my body.

[I hope Plot Armor is now understood by the most of you.]
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RE: Regarding plot armor.

#16
I'm an avid reader and I have seen plot armor/DEM's used both negatively and positively depending on point of view.

One easy example of a negative was an MC who was shot by the antagonist and fell into a ravine, the antagonist had grenades and explosives on him and didn't bother using them to make sure the MC was dead, when he had survived several other encounters with this character. It felt unrealistic when the MC had previously survived being shot several times by this character, the antagonist was ordered confirm his death. The antagonist was generally a by the book character and would most likely have made sure with his explosives as it was shown he had done with a previous enemy, but he didn't hence plot armor.

A positive usage would be the MC advancing the plot through a lucky find in a library he was browsing for a healing potion recipe and finding info on part of the main plot by happenstance. That info could be useful later it might not be useful at all, it still moved things along without being unreasonable.

I tend to hope when reading a story that I won't groan when the MC happens to pull out a shield of ice resistance in a desert while fighting a previously unknown ice dragon. I would rather cheer and see the MC caught by surprise and use his intellect to use the desert temperature to his advantage to beat said dragon, maybe reflecting the desert sun off his shield at it and such.