Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#1
What do you think when a author break the rules or setting that he has built up? Not like a small change at first which will gradually fit into the setting, but a major alteration. Sometimes it's used to make a story better in their opinion, but do any of you feel that it's a betrayal?

A few examples:

A character who had a OP power, but its limits him in almost all areas. Like in a world of sword and magic, a young boy finding a demonic sword in a cave used by a famous hero, but after contracting with it he learns he can't use magic or any magic tool, and in exchange can begin to learn legendary sword skills. This is a world that favors magic over sword and he struggles to find his place with just sword skills. Then for half the story he gets famous as a master swordsman who only relies on sword skills to defeat magic user. Do you think it's okay if all of a sudden he can us magic at the level of a grandmaster?

An apocalypse game setting for the first fifty chapters, but then most of the game setting is forgotten and the author starts introducing the advantages of modern weapons. It tries to look like a fusion of modern weapons and game like powers, but anyone with two eyes can see that it has become a story where the author enjoys killing monsters and super humans with just a few bullets or a rocket.

A MC who slowly builds himself up from weak to strong, but suddenly becomes a godly genius who can suddenly learn any technique and see through all his opponents moves. We liked to see him work hard, fail, then succeed and gain the respect of others, but then becomes the equivalent of One Punch Man.

RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#2
I don't  think it is a betrayal but I would be upset. At least given the examples you gave.

When you make changes like that it is almost like you changed the concept of the entire story. The very reason  someone started the story was probably because they liked the character and his limits and then when the character suddenly doesn't have limits and can do things he shouldn't be able to do it breaks immersion.

Though as long it doesn't change the concept I don't really mind how big the change is.

Like if suddenly the major antaganist changes to someone else I can live with that change since the struggle for the mc would or at least should be the same. After all the reason a story is entertaining is not because of how it ends but what is in the middle.
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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#3
let us see. i can certainly see it as a betrayal personally but i don't think it is anything wrong. as long as the synopsis wasn't outright violated as in '' the journey of a young man who uses his sword to carve a path for himself in the world.'' and then he uses magic on the grandmaster level? that would certainly be a betrayal by the author's side. 

There is nothing i like less then when a story promises one thing and then tries to be another. take for example a story that has started out as a gag comedy and then near the end suddenly turned into a dramatic depiction of two lovers against the world. or something like that.  A story promises something through its genres and synopsis, and it can be as unique as it damn wants to in that premise but it can damn not alter its promises. 

Having said that, i can understand something starting to write a with a half-assed effort and getting frustrated or bored with their  own premise halfway through and trying to wiggle out of it with some contrived new plot element. that is certainly a betrayal and lazy on the writers part in my opinion.

RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#4
In professional terms it is called 'Jumping the Shark' or 'Nuking the Fridge'. The author has run out of ideas and in order to spice things up introduces new elements to keep the story engaging. Once you reach ultimate hax grand-master of a skill then there isn't really anywhere to go except give the MC more hax skills.

It is a trap that is very easy to fall into and once stuck, the story is ruined. Readers want the MC to struggle and develop during the story. In your examples, the boy should have taken a lot long to master the sword skills and figuring out how to combat magic with them. That would be much better than jumping straight to hax level and then giving him magic.

For the apocalypse setting they should have gone the other way. Having to use shitty weapons in a game setting like rocks and clubs. The person who could scavenge the best weapon would have an advantage.

One Punch Man is basically a crack story at its heart. It takes tropes and then runs with them. That works because of the cultural history and how it is possible to easily convey in an anime work. If One Punch Man were a book, it would be terrible because so many of the jokes would be lost or they would be overly explained.
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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#5
Honestly, I don't think it's any sort of betrayal on the author's part.  It's their fantasy, their story, and they're free to develop it any direction they want.  As a reader, the most one gets is the choice to either follow along or drop it.

Life itself can have some amazingly abrupt alteration in it.   Rich Sid could be the happy go lucky wealthy kid who has the world at his fingertips, and then BAM!! Out of nowhere, a FDA investagation shows that the drug that his parents business manufactures has lethal side effects.  Production is stopped.  Payments are made.  Business is bankrupt.  Suddenly he's a complete and utter hobo...

OR...

Broke Joe is simply walking down the beach drunk, passes out, and wakes up with a huge chuck of junk in his arms that turns out to be whale vomit -- one of the most valuable items on the planet.  He's now rich as heck!

Tommy and Sue are highschool sweethearts.  Been dating and loving each other for years with plans to marry.  Their story would be sweet, upright, and cheerful -- right up to the point where they have an accident on the way to their honeymoon an Sue dies.   The tale is now a dark, gloomy take on Tommy's loss, guilt, and multiple failed suicides...

And all of these are just sudden reversals of fortune that occur instantly in real life!

In a fantasy setting where magic, monsters, and superhuman skills abound, why couldn't a guy who picks up a sword and instantly become a grandmaster bladesman also suddenly find a book that turned him into a grandmaster wizard?  

Stories are only limited by the writer's imagination.  Now given, the writer's imagination doesn't always fit the readers expectations, but that doesn't mean the author did some great betrayal.  If you enjoyed a story for fifty chapters and then it changes and you don't like it anymore, simply move on and thank the author for those fifty chapters of enjoyment that you did have.  The way he chose to take the story didn't live up to your expectations and you're more than free to drop it at any time.

Authors aren't under a binding contract to keep their work the same stale style.  They can start a story in the old west, have a wormhole zap their characters back to become knights in King Author's time, then have Morgan La Fey zap them into a zombie apocalypse, before they set off the anti-matter generator there, blow up that universe and suddenly find themselves back running from dinosaurs...

The only limit is the limit that the author puts on themselves.  As a reader, you can either like it or leave it; that's about it.

RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#6
I always love the scooby doo ending:

Cop: The real killer is the butler! (grabs the butler)

Everyone: *gasped!*

Investigator: No he is not!

Cop: (Glares at the investigator) How would you know?

Investigator: Because (pulls the mask of the butler) he is actually the original victim! (Then pulls the mask of the cop) and you are the evil twin brother of the butler!

Everyone *Gasped!*

Evil brother: Cursed you investigator! How did you know all this!?

Investigator: (Pull out his own masked face) Because I am actually your brother's gay lover and at the same time, your third cousin!

Everyone *Gasped!*

At this point, the reader will either throw away the book in disgust or start a slow clapping while shaking his head in awe...
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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#7
'batotit' pid='759103' dateline='1471147398' Wrote: I always love the scooby doo ending:

Cop: The real killer is the butler! (grabs the butler)

Everyone: *gasped!*

Investigator: No he is not!

Cop: (Glares at the investigator) How would you know?

Investigator: Because (pulls the mask of the butler) he is actually the original victim! (Then pulls the mask of the cop) and you are the evil twin brother of the butler!

Everyone *Gasped!*

Evil brother: Cursed you investigator! How did you know all this!?

Investigator: (Pull out his own masked face) Because I am actually your brother's gay lover and at the same time, your third cousin!

Everyone *Gasped!*

At this point, the reader will either throw away the book in disgust or start a slow clapping while shaking his head in awe...

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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#8
I think there is no yes or no answer to this.


As writers its kind of our jobs to set challenges for our character and make them miraculously overcome them. Usually the more difficult it is the better. In a sense it helps to keep your readers guessing, which is ultimately what we want.

BUT

It all comes down to the delivery and how you let the MC overcome the challenges. Some are easy and some (should be) difficult.


I have had two experiences regarding this. 1- it was too easy, which kind off made the story utterly boring.  2- It was too difficult, to the point where I felt so frustrated I wanted to break stuff, however if I had to choose between the two.... I would choose to break something.


Of course, it is easy to type this and say it should be like this and that, but ultimately finding the perfect balance for it is nearly impossible. I think this especially rings true for fantasy and the simple reason is: we have to mesh what makes sense and is logical with a magical world where anything is possible, yet believable in the minds of our readers. (makes sense right?)

Using the example of a guy that cant use magic and is then suddenly super strong in using it.... It would kind of make me swear at the book too, but if it is delivered in a way that sticks with the "reality" of the world the writer created, it wont be so bad. Maybe write it happening in stages. Or while facing a foe he cant defeat with his awesome sword skills(that just became completely useless) but it would be like a last minute thing for that very last blow between life and death and afterwards the struggle would begin to try and control and hone this power. (I would even make this a complete arc) he has to go on a journey in order to find a master to train him in his magic, or he needs to find some special jewel to help him control it.(shit like that)
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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#9
'Mr Sir' pid='763394' dateline='1471435991' Wrote: I think this especially rings true for fantasy and the simple reason is: we have to mesh what makes sense and is logical with a magical world where anything is possible, yet believable in the minds of our readers. (makes sense right?)

I've learned this is wrong. Readers come with a built-in problem: the "s". You can make something believable for one reader, but somebody else out there is simply going to come along and scream at you about how unrealistic/unbelievable something is. You can't write trying to make things believable in the readers minds. You can only try to explain it, understand it, and make it believable in your own.

Some places where readers suspension of disbelief fails utterly amazes me. When I was writing The 8th Day, there's a scene in the story where our hero is stabbed completely through the gut with a wooden spear, it comes out his back, he yanks it out, and heals in several hours. <-- This, the readers had no issue at all with. It was 100% acceptable and believable for the story.

A chapter or so later, a girl pierces her private areas with a set of earrings. <-- A reader rant goes up saying this isn't realistic or believable. No female would do such a thing in an apocalyptic setting! The risk for disease and infection was just too great!!

A hole made through the guts for someone can heal completely with no issues, infection, or disease in a few hours -- but a tiny little pinprick from an earring is unbelievable and life endangering?? O_o!!




As I continued to write my story, I was hit with various different barrages of reader opinions like this that I simply couldn't understand. Some folks accepted the story as I presented it. Others would bitch and whine and threaten to drop the story every chapter. I had one reader who dropped my story at least four different times that I know of... Eventually, I told him, "Farewell. I'll see you and everyone else next chapter." I came to realize that he dropped it every time he caught up to where I'd written it... LOL!

You can't write to the reader's level of belief. If you try to, you're going to have to write to the lowest level of belief out there -- and there's guys who are insanely skeptical and critical of everything. If you have folks who can't believe we landed on the moon, you're definitely going to have folks who can't believe that the princess farts in her sleep...


The trick isn't to write to where the reader can believe the story -- some folks believe everything and some will never believe anything. The trick is to write to the point where YOU can believe and envision your own writing.

RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#10
You have a point there dark, we can write stuff that makes all the sense in the world, but ultimately people's opinions will differ.

We cant keep everyone happy and once you try, your fiction will start to make less and less sense. Its like being in a relationship where the happiness of your partner relies completely on you. Its tiresome, if your partner cant keep themselves happy how are you supposed to do it?

Stay true to your story, but if you break your own rules. Make sure there is some risk, or time(just something). In my mind it has to be something huge!
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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#11
I agree with Dark, everyone view things differently so someone will always have issues with your story which is normal. I say stick to what you have planned and don't let other people's bitching change it because at the end of the day it's your story not theirs.
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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#12
Now to toss in my own $0.02 when I should be writing. *ahem*

I am fine with a logical progression of things.  If you went from beggar, to shop clerk, to banker's assistant to banker, to rich s.o.b. over several years but could weave a decent tale of how they got along that path, okay sure.  If there was a sudden reversal of fate and the tide of a war or your allies/enemies flip flopped... I could see that in some settings.

But if the summery of your plot comes out looking the an old "Variety Hour" TV show, something is probably wrong.  If every 5 chapters someone jumps out and goes "And now for something completely different."  Then something is has clearly derailed.

Got a character that can't use Magic in a magic rich world?  Okay, is there a way for them to gain magic or something similar?  If so, make sure you periodically elude to it a few times before the sudden Dues Ex Machina that hands it to them.  If it's some expensive pill, let them bemoan for a moment that they'll never afford it.  If its some rare legendary item, have drunks talking about it in a tavern chapters earlier.  Or old Granny the story teller, and the old legends she was raised hearing from her Gran.  If you have them in the world, a few times and chapters ahead of time... it's far less Jarring when that UFO shows up hovering over the Cowboy main-street gun fight.

And yes, a lot of times when they jump the shark... they add something so broken to the story that in about 3 chapters they just stop.  The larger the shift with what they add, the harder it is to smooth it into the existing plot line.  Some times all the bits around the edges start to break and crumble away.

Final thoughts:  Betrayal, hmm.  Perhaps just a dishonesty of sorts?  But I have stopped reading books or series because of one of the following:
A) Key logic was ignored in favor of pure stupidity and a 3rd grader could have out smarted the whole cast.  Thus leading to the epic disaster that sets the stage for book 2, etc.  
B) A premise that was critical to the over arcing plot was IGNORED half way through the book and onward.
C) The writer used a real world setting + monsters, then proved they had ZERO knowledge of how real world Biology works.  IE monsters feeding off people for a Month, vampire style while the people are kept sedated.  Except there was no life support basis included.  The people were literally just comatose on the floor for a month without eating or drinking, while being used as a blood bank nightly.
D) The book series seemed to be heading towards a reasonable and natural conclusion.  But they wanted to extend it and sell more books.  So they brought in a secretly half crazy military unit who abruptly gunned down everyone but the MC.
E) They jumped the shark several times in a row and the plot arcs looked like a kid was trying to play "connect the dots" on a paper place mat, with a broken crayon.

Worst part?  Most of the above happened not in RRL stories, but in e-books actually published Amazon.  
//Rant End.
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RE: Betrayal - When an author breaks their own rules.

#13
To paraphrase a fictional pirate: the rules are more like guidelines really.

If the plot twist can be supported by the story and it makes sense in the setting then it's probably fine. If it however comes out of nowhere like a rocket powered cow on a skateboard, with no rhyme or reason for existing other than 'it looks cool', then it was probably done wrong.

For example on the muggle swordsman who suddenly learns "yer a wizard Harry", if it's set up in such a way that he NEEDS to break the limits of his muggle nature because otherwise he's dead then go for it. But if he just trips into a puddle that suddenly gives him magic then I may ask that you share whatever you're smoking.

Now there are times to break the rules of your setting right from the get go. I have a Goddess trapped as a mortal who has the " impossible " ability to both train her Blood Force (a kind of internal energy for making you stronger, faster, ect) and magic. Why? Because her old Deity powers are a fusion of those two energies and by giving her access to those (by making her work her malnourished butt off) she'll begin to regain some small level of her old godhood powers despite the limited mortal body.

So we have a rule (everyone has the ability to train their internal energy or magic) and an immediate exception from the start (the protagonist can train both) for a specific plot driving reason (it let's her regain her godly powers...eventually). And even that rule break can be further supported later in the story with more plot later if it feels like that something isn't standing strong enough on it's own.

That's just my own stance (and shameless plug of what I'm currently working on).

EDIT: And now the idea of a swordsman who can't use magic in a heavy magic world is influencing my idea of an aspiring knight who dies and is reborn as a chicken with the goal of still becoming a knight.

Thanks?
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