Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#1
Okay, this is something I've wondering for a while. 

With examples of Hatoful Boyfriend, having the initial concept of being a bird based dating sim, which sounds stupid on paper, but still manages to hide a captivating deep story behind it. It seems like any concept, no matter how stupid can be made, with the proper execution, into something great.

The debate here is, 'is this the case?'

Is it possible to have an initial concept so stupid or uninteresting that even with the perfect execution, it could still be considered a failure and turn audiences off it? Or is concept such a minor thing, that any idea given the correct backing can become a master piece?
Member of WriTE. The most apathetic member...

RE: Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#2
So you're asking if an idea can fail as an idea? In other fields that require a more practical approach, such as engineering, i would say yes. For writing, I would say no.

I find it an odd question, because the idea of what is 'boring' or 'stupid' is entirely subjective. Every idea or concept will always have an audience, even if that audience is only one. Even the most mundane idea, say a story about someone working 9-5 at a job, will always have someone who is interested in it.

Whether they maintain that interest entirely depends on the execution. What is considered failure? People not liking it? I would say a story's failure is when the people who do like it don't want to read it.

I think a concept is, figuratively, the audience and the execution determines whether that audience leaves or stays. So a VR story, as a concept, has a large audience. How it is executed will determine whether the audience stays interested, or leaves to find a different story.

Which essentially means that a concept doesn't really have a factor in whether a story is good or not, it only determines the audience.

RE: Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#3
I can understand that such a judgement, like something being boring or interesting, is completely subjective. 

I was more meaning to whether or not any concept could be more definitive of it's rank and popularity than the actual quality of it. 

I can understand concept defining it's target audience, therefore deciding it's popularity. But could a concept affect it's rank, making it unfairly represent the skill actually behind it, or would the rank be fair to the execution alone? (Both positively or negatively.)

-Edit: please note I'm meaning a more specific initial concept than just the genre. So if it helps to picture it, imagine two romance stories. Say one is the generic concept of a high school romance between a nerd and a popular girl, and say the other is a romance where the MC is a headless chicken. With the same quality in execution of both, would you expect one of these to have a higher ranking than the other, or for them to be the same rank?
Member of WriTE. The most apathetic member...

RE: Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#4
What you're asking is fundamentally flawed. Every concept has an audience. Making that concept more specific only makes the audience more niche, that is all. You cannot change the fact that there is an audience in the first place.

And yes, a concept is a huge factor in the popularity of the piece. That is, again, related entirely to the audience. A more niche concept will have a more niche audience, so it is entirely understandable that it will be less popular. Understanding this is useful for those who want to write for a living, but otherwise it's mostly pointless.

As for ranking, I assume you mean the 'quality' of the piece. My answer is no. The quality of a story is entirely related to the execution, not the initial concept. Ever heard of the quote "it's a poor craftsmen that blames his tools." It means those with poor skill will always blame what they're working with, and not themselves, for failure. A great writer can turn any concept into a compelling story.

RE: Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#5
'ShiftyCake' pid='795791' dateline='1473914014' Wrote: A great writer can turn any concept into a compelling story.

I agree with this 100%. I've seen some of the dumbest things that I have absolutely no interest in, become a story told which somehow grabbed my attention and sucked me into them. On the other hand, I've seen things that would normally be right up my alley, give me that dreaded "Meh" feeling and I end up dropping interest in them.

I'm not really into sports. I don't watch football, tennis, golf, basketball, soccer, bowling, or fishing. (Or anything else of that type of thing really.) Yet, I found myself drawn into stories such as Eyeshield 21, Baby Steps, Yowamushi Pedal, and Hajime no Ippo. The sports wasn't what drew me; it was the style told with each story, the characters, and the way the plot progressed and moved steadily forward.

Other things which belonged to the general genres I thought I'd enjoy, I found myself quickly losing interest in. Gantz was one of those... somewhere around issue 30 or 40, I just lost interest and didn't care to pick up another chapter and read or watch them. Supernatural, I really used to like -- then the series stopped the apocalypse and saved the world from ending! And... then it got silly. "We beat the devil and stopped armageddon! What's next?" Leviatians! No wait! God's Scribe is taking over! No wait! Now God's Sister is on a rampage!! No wait! It's even worse than that... NOW....

/sigh

Now, I find it to be repetitive drivel past its prime. The fact that it's "Action, Supernatural, Fantasy, Drama, Horror, Mystery, Thriller" means squat. I've lost interest in it. It's time for the show to die so something new can replace it.

Perhaps that "something" will be a tale about a mystic who channels their power and summons giant headless chickens to stop supernatural monsters from taking over the world!! Told properly (perhaps the 'hero' has the ability to manifest dream apparitions and had recurring nightmares after PETA tossed bloody headless chickens at their car as they pulled out of KFC, causing his parents to die in a car accident... thus, the headless chicken is a powerful nightmare creature from the depths of his Id....), we could be drawn into the hero's story, accept the concept, and suddenly finding it becoming something remarkable that we'll never forget!

Any concept can flourish and become popular. Any concept can falter and become garbage. There's a million and one things that affect popularity (perhaps it won't be popular today, but it could become in five years). Look at clothing style alone and how much they've changed in the last 100 years...

Anything -- EVERYTHING -- has a time and place when and where it can find acceptance. Even complete garbage will end up favorited by some people out there. (Mystery Science Theatre 3000 anyone?)

My suggestion?

Just write what you want, and then let the readers who like your stuff come to you on your own. If YOU enjoy it, someone else out there will as well.

RE: Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#6
Quote:Is it possible to have an initial concept so stupid or uninteresting that even with the perfect execution, it could still be considered a failure and turn audiences off it? Or is concept such a minor thing, that any idea given the correct backing can become a master piece?

As the others have said, no matter the subject, you can turn something into nothing- especially with the written word. Now, it may not be to one person's tastes, but it will be to another's... wow, all the good words and phrases have already been said for me.
RE:TTC | Support Your Authors | WriTE + Magazine | LitRPGS | INKED | RRL Music Playlist | Gashapon Art Machine | RRL Discord
Congrats, you've found the following item: <Potato.> Would you like to add it to your inventory?
<Yes>/<No>
P.s. Too lazy to finish cleaning up my forum sig right now. Ignore half the links please.

RE: Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#8
'BlaiseCorvin' pid='799153' dateline='1474187667' Wrote:
'TheManWithLongReach' pid='799093' dateline='1474180673' Wrote: "Is it possible to have an initial concept so stupid or uninteresting that even with the perfect execution"

Yep, and I could even give a good example: 

Pokemon + Lost Roman Legion + Jim Butcher = Codex alera. 

Stupid shit done right.

I think you meant to disagree with the op, not agree with it.

When I first read the topic of this post I immediately thought of Codex Alera.  That was an entertaining series which I consumed as quickly as I could.  Two completely unrelated topics came together to make one hell of a story.  Of course the writing ability of Jim Butcher helps.  Jim Butcher wrote the story after a fellow writer challenged him that he could not write a good story based on a lame idea.  Mr. Butcher countered that he could using two lame ideas.  The ideas given were what TheManWithLongReach wrote.  So I would disagree with the topic and state that regardless of the topic with proper execution (awesome character development) any concept can work.

RE: Is it possible to make a concept so bad, that even with good execution, it sucks?

#9
'OldBegginings' pid='795654' dateline='1473905337' Wrote: Okay, this is something I've wondering for a while. 

With examples of Hatoful Boyfriend, having the initial concept of being a bird based dating sim, which sounds stupid on paper, but still manages to hide a captivating deep story behind it. It seems like any concept, no matter how stupid can be made, with the proper execution, into something great.

The debate here is, 'is this the case?'

Is it possible to have an initial concept so stupid or uninteresting that even with the perfect execution, it could still be considered a failure and turn audiences off it? Or is concept such a minor thing, that any idea given the correct backing can become a master piece?

"There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written." - Oscar Wilde
MALEFICENCE

If you're going to do it, then you might as well be the best at it.

That's why, everything else is cold comfort. I'll claim this unforgiving world.