Well, first of all, the only reincarnation fiction I've read has been Mushoku Tensei and the slime monster one. I've read a couple of reincarnation manga but they didn't get too far. I've read a few Isekai (Other world) manga and I think the two are fairly similar. I want to get people's opinion on what makes them good and what makes them bad.

This is mostly to see what to do and what not to do. I'm working on a reincarnation fic right now and have an idea of where to go but I feel like this can give some guidance. What's more interesting early on, the world building or the characters? Is third person preferred over first person? I've written up to 7 chapters in first person but I can see it becoming limiting later on. Perhaps I'm too worried about that and the limited power of first person is best for the large world I'm going to throw him in.

If I went with third person, I would mostly do it from a limited perspective but then should I just make it all first person if that's the case?

Anyway, learning what makes reincarnation fictions good or bad will help in the long run. Thanks.

Edit: Feel free to rant about reincarnation or the like if you want too. Everything will probably be helpful.

Edit 2: The only reason why I'm asking about perspective is because it's been on my mind for a while. First person feels a bit more 'natural' in the sense that I've used it more but I enjoy the freedom of third person. I rather enjoy Overlord and, while it's not perfect in many departments, I want to have some massive scale fun like Overlord does.

There're no bad themes, only bad writers.

As an Isekai-writer, here are some of my thoughts.

In my story, I decided to use first person POV and to focus more on the characters. Why 1st person? Because my world has many aspects to it, and that's why I think it's more interesting for the MCs to wonder, to question, to have that limited view of everything. It also has a certain power, it's the best way to directly confer the thoughts of the narrator to your readers, you also have the chance to topple what was just stated as true to simply change the narrator.
I also use 3rd person for non-MCs, to set them a bit apart to the reader, reminding them: They're not the MCs. It also gives me the possibility (though I barely use it for now) to get some worldbuilding outside the perception of the narrator done.

Why did I focus on the characters? Because I think that the best world isn't worth anything without a character you like to explore it with. If my readers can decide whether they like to accompany my protagonist and MCs within three chapters, I feel like I have done a good job. Though to be honest, my story's characters have personalities and are teenagers, so I still get some comments about how they're supposed to be the worst, just because I also play with their flaws...
Also, too much info about a world can simply be overwhelming, so bringing it piece by piece while having your characters comment them, which also settles their personalities along the way.

Some fan favorites of my story had much impact due to these choices. Because they hit hard, because they could surprise, because I could be unconventional without spoiling the fun. Meeting elves in a story can be a rather boring experience, which is solely based on how great they are and how unfamiliar their culture is. Or you can have "the best RRL elves ever" (according to a comment) by not giving much intel to the readers before, and playing with those expectations.

I think one of the most important aspects of Isekai and Reincarnation stories is this exploration of a wondrous world, putting someone from a setting we know, to a setting we have yet to discover. So you should ask yourself, how you want this world to unfold, do you like the more neutral standpoint, a bit of a Star Trek perspective, being able to look at things as they are, or do you want to use biased POVs and prove them wrong at times, more like Babylon 5?
Most of the basic choices are easy, after you know what kind of experience you want to go as a writer and what you like your readers to read. I'm more the type, that wants to explore the world I've created, so my choices were 1st person, character-driven.



Now about Reincarnation Stories... usually not a big fan, tbh. Mostly, because all the important questions are dodged, like: If I'm reincarnated as a goblin, what color has my poop? Do I smell different? Will I have nightmares, because my mind still needs to adapt to the new body, whispering into my ear, it's not my body? How do worms taste now?
If it's reincarnated as a human again, how about different languages, the brain should be actually already set, all synapses are done, otherwise the mind would be the scrambling of a regular child with too much information to progress, which might be interesting, as it causes the mind and personality to be arranged anew to adapt to this. And if not, shouldn't the developing process be totally out of synch, as the mind has already completed certain steps, while the body doesn't follow, causing it to stressing over?

Plus, why is there so little bounding to the parents often? I mean, if someone takes care of you, you can start loving them as members of your family, mental age doesn't matter.

Well, you guess why I chose Isekai. xD

I like the resurrection theme, those are some I read (SPOILER WARNING):

Death March:
A programmer is transported to a new world. MC vastly overpowered, light tone with a strong harem element.
What I like: Characters, merry going tone, world.

Overlord:
A huge mmorpg nerd is spawned in the world of his game when the server close. MC overpowered beyond reason.
What I like: The clash between the inner perception of MC (he think he is doing good things) and the perception other characters have of him (an unstoppable unintelligible engine of death that cannot be opposed.)

Kumo Desu:
A spider girl is reborn in a world with mmorpg mechanic.
What I like: Game style narration of first arc. How MC was behind most of the second arc happenings.
What I don't like: The third arc lost the magic for me.

Magi Grandson:
Overpowered MC reborn in a world with magic. Harem elements.
What i like: Merry going.
What I dislike. Probably the weakest entry.

RE: Monster:
MC is reborn, earn skills and becomes overpowered.

New Gate:
MC clear a Sword Art online style death game and is transported to a real version of the world. Harem elements.
What I like: Skills, characters and world. And art of both novel and manga.

I think you can see the common elements amongst them. Powerful MC, explore a game style world, popular protagonist (optional).

Reading them I found element I really liked, but also things I disliked. I never found a story with all the elements I wanted, so I started to write my own resurrection story. Exploring a large world with lots of backstory and loads of side characters. Having high internal consistency. Powerful MC that grows and learn. At times brutal world. Next to no harem elements. I borrowed elements from dozen of stories and mixed them with my own ideas to build the world.

About POV, I tried different versions before writing. In the end I use a mix. Some snippets in first POV of MC, others from POV of different characters, others from narrator POV. I think it's restrictive to use a single POV style, but that's my preference. Using multiple POV you can explore the inside of the mind of other characters, and that helps in showing their mindset and goals to the readers and building them up.

Something I think is important is to have a direction and an ending for the story in mind when you start writing. Otherwise, you risk writing a great start with great elements, but then finding yourself lost not knowing where to go onward. It might be worth to write a full story, even a very short one to practice writing an ending, before you start writing a larger story (I think the ending is the hardest part to write).

This is all my opinion. I'm doing my best, but in the end I'm an amateur. I might be doing everything wrong XD.

I've always disliked the childhood phase of reincarnation stories, it tends to destroy my perceived view of the character.

I don't like reincarnation stories and the ones I do like, I like in spite of the reincarnation plot mechanic, rather than because of it. In my eyes reincarnation (or worse "summoned to another world") is what happens when an author has a cool idea for a setting but doesn't want to/is unable to think of how a character in that setting would naturally behave - so they just go "well, what if the main character was ME" and work from there.

It's sort of the logical conclusion when every piece of media in certain genres star generic everyman characters so that the audience can slot themselves into the wish fulfillment fantasy - but that doesn't make it good or interesting. Like if you're writing about a high fantasy setting, with swords and dragons and the whole package, do you think I - the reader - want to read about how some schlub likes video games? Being reincarnated never meaningfully impacts 99% of these stories, it's just so the author can have a throwaway line here and there comparing things to the previous life. And so the author can lazily copy their own real life experience into the story as easy shorthand for the audience (how many reincarnation stories have you read where the MC takes the time to roughly translate how many gold coins equals how many yen...) which is absurd.

And those are just my complaints with the storytelling, I sort of glazed past how I'm like 99% sure a person who had to re-experience life from the POV of a baby - for years - would come out the other end legitimately insane. It would be like being trapped in an isolation cell with no ability to move your body for the first six months or so.

One of the reasons I enjoyed Log Horizon is it seemed that (at least in anime) there were people involved who have actually played mmo's. They managed to actually remind what was good about such games and the plot had some clever problems and solutions. It was more than just a harem show in a fantasy game/world which is already far more than Sword Art, Re:zero, Gate and other garbage.

Konosuba is also a clever subversion where the main characters suck so bad that they cannot get out of the starting area for two seasons (or did they in the second one? if they did then not very far).

'sinkingship' pid='828779' dateline='1508698667' Wrote: I don't like reincarnation stories and the ones I do like, I like in spite of the reincarnation plot mechanic, rather than because of it. In my eyes reincarnation (or worse "summoned to another world") is what happens when an author has a cool idea for a setting but doesn't want to/is unable to think of how a character in that setting would naturally behave - so they just go "well, what if the main character was ME" and work from there.

It's sort of the logical conclusion when every piece of media in certain genres star generic everyman characters so that the audience can slot themselves into the wish fulfillment fantasy - but that doesn't make it good or interesting. Like if you're writing about a high fantasy setting, with swords and dragons and the whole package, do you think I - the reader - want to read about how some schlub likes video games? Being reincarnated never meaningfully impacts 99% of these stories, it's just so the author can have a throwaway line here and there comparing things to the previous life. And so the author can lazily copy their own real life experience into the story as easy shorthand for the audience (how many reincarnation stories have you read where the MC takes the time to roughly translate how many gold coins equals how many yen...) which is absurd.

And those are just my complaints with the storytelling, I sort of glazed past how I'm like 99% sure a person who had to re-experience life from the POV of a baby - for years - would come out the other end legitimately insane. It would be like being trapped in an isolation cell with no ability to move your body for the first six months or so.

I'm really glad you mentioned the baby part. I've found that part strange about reincarnation stories too and it's always bothered me. Most authors tend to address it like it's not a big deal but it is. I've thought about how authors should do it and I think the best thing is to either skip it completely or go through it as quickly as possible.

I think the point you brought up about how it's just a throwaway and never really impactful is pretty accurate. Even thinking about it now, I can see how I can just twist the story so most of what I want happens within the world without a need for reincarnation. However, there are some parts that aren't possible without the reincarnation aspect.

Still, the point is valid. I don't know if it will end up affecting the story more or if I'll just be part of that 99% that uses it as a plot device to insert some of my experiences.

for me, it's mostly about how ppl rarely do research before they write their fictions
something like the existence of words or terms like 'hours', 'minutes', 'A.M', 'P.M', 'teleport', 'bullet', for example, things that suppose to not exist

or that all the MCs keep on going "this world has xxx days a year, XXX days a month, XXX hours a day" or go full length 'of a chapter' for info dumping about the world-building, when those MCs suppose to not be able to comprehense the wide range of vocabularies in the new language yet

In reply to OP's post. There has been little effort to distinguish the different types of third person POV. There is loose third (don't use too much as it's harder to empathise with the MC) and strict third. Strict third is third person which sticks closely to the MC, making the reader party to their thought processes. It allows you to hear their inner thoughts as well as maintaining cinematic distance when necessary. I use it in my fiction, which is coincidentally a reincarnation and portal fic chimera.

Secondly in relation to the discussion that has blown up. It is merely a continuation of the eternal bad premise vs bad writing debate.
Using a premise such as reincarnation or portal are not bad in themselves. Although, they are sometimes indicative of a lazy writer and lazy worldbuilding. They are usually also indicative of a lacking imagination. But that is a symptom not a cause.
Reincarnation and portal fictions have a lot going for them, when done correctly, although the trope is overused.
I agree that they can be used as substitute for character development and worldbuilding far too often... however, when done correctly, rather than having to wait for an inciting incident, the character development and worldbuilding can occur in conjunction with the pseudo-inciting incident (awakening/transport to another world) while waiting for the primary inciting incident to arrive.
I've been fairly successful with a novel so far that utilises both these tropes (I started it as a bit of a joke, Jim Butcher style, and ran with it) and no one really evens mentions them... because it's done properly.

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'mlovolm' pid='828843' dateline='1508903148' Wrote: for me, it's mostly about how ppl rarely do research before they write their fictions
something like the existence of words or terms like 'hours', 'minutes', 'A.M', 'P.M', 'teleport', 'bullet', for example, things that suppose to not exist

or that all the MCs keep on going "this world has xxx days a year, XXX days a month, XXX hours a day" or go full length 'of a chapter' for info dumping about the world-building, when those MCs suppose to not be able to comprehense the wide range of vocabularies in the new language yet

This is a complete double standard if you ever create a different world to the one we live in. Such things are used to make the world understandable to the reader so that the interesting stuff can happen. You cannot describe an "atom" as that comes from greek "a-tomos" (un-cuttable), nor can you describe the word sun, as that refers to the specific star named Sol, neither can you describe solar system, as that too comes from Sol and thus comes with the assumption that the civilisation is Sol-centric despite being around a completely different star (and god help you if you want to work out the goldilocks zone and atmospheric densities, never mind tidal forces and solar wind, of planets orbiting binary star systems or red white or brown dwarfs).
Your entire argument is a statement that anything less than perfect base reality, as you perceive it, is lazy and incomplete worldbuilding.

i think it's ok to, say, describe it, in narrator and the like, because, of course, if u want to go full length, u'd end up with no vocabularies at all to write to begin with
but yeah, vocabularies that associates with certain objects or concepts, for example, should be limited as much as possible, to be, "realistic" and whatnot
and of course, should be careful when it comes to dialogues or monologues, etc.

let's say, it's fine, to have a narrator like "the MC then teleport (term coined around 19th-20th cent.) to abcxyz", but there shouldn't be stuff like "[Teleport]!", or "[Earth Bullet]!" in dialogues so to say, after all, is there actually the concept of bullet, or teleport in that world? maybe instead of 'teleport', it's actually called something like 'Space Jump', 'Instant Movement', 'God Step' for example xD

things that 're common between the 2 worlds, like tables, chairs, moons, suns, stars, etc. feel free to stay as it is, but stuff that're not shared between them like bullets, guns, clocks, teleport, communism, feminism, blah blah blah, together with their range of associated vocabularies (if that world's yet to invented those things in any form yet) should not

'mlovolm' pid='828862' dateline='1508952012' Wrote: i think it's ok to, say, describe it, in narrator and the like, because, of course, if u want to go full length, u'd end up with no vocabularies at all to write to begin with
but yeah, things, well, vocabularies, that associates with certain objects or concepts, for example, should be limited as much as possible, to be, "realistic" and whatnot
and of course, should be careful when it comes to dialogues or monologues, etc.

let's say, it's fine, to have a narrator like "the MC then teleport (term coined around 19th-20th cent.) to abcxyz", but there shouldn't be stuff like "[Teleport]!", or "[Earth Bullet]!" in dialogues so to say, after all, is there actually the concept of bullet, or teleport in that world? maybe instead of 'teleport', it's actually called something like 'Space Jump', 'Instant Movement', 'God Step' for example xD

things that 're common between the 2 worlds, like tables, chairs, moons, suns, stars, etc. feel free to stay as it is, but stuff that're not shared between them like bullets, guns, clocks, teleport, communism, feminism, blah blah blah (if that world 've yet to invented thoes things in any form yet) should not

Oh, I see, yeah, I get what you're saying... It's like Conan the Barbarian bursting through the door and shouting, "Honey, I'm home! Put the kettle on." Yeah, I definitely understand you're gripe with that. It's totally anachronistic.

This modern-vocabulary-in-another-world thingy is haunting me whenever I have to describe architecture for instance. With so many words coming straight from italian, french and whatnot, and each deeply linked to specific cultures and time periods, I never know if I should use them or not.

To answer the original question, I think that the reincarnation and transported tropes aren't a bad thing. Just like everything else, if it's done well, then good. I don't even mind when that kind of premise is used for self-insert purposes, as long as it's a good read; and self-inserts are numerous even outside of re/transported trope, so the issue isn't the trope itself.

Finally, I'd say that whether you should use 1st person or 3rd person really depends on the story you want to tell. For instance, you wanna write about a guy that goes mad because he died and got reborn in a mind-twisting world where the physical laws he knows don't apply (magic!!1), where the society and languages don't make any sense to him, as a baby who can't even wipe his own behind, and in the end his sanity can't keep up? 1st is the way to go. Want to show a large scale story about how modern knowledge would impact the economy and politics of a medieval world? I'd use 3rd person and multiple povs.

'Eyeball1844' pid='828781' dateline='1508708095' Wrote: I'm really glad you mentioned the baby part. I've found that part strange about reincarnation stories too and it's always bothered me. Most authors tend to address it like it's not a big deal but it is. I've thought about how authors should do it and I think the best thing is to either skip it completely or go through it as quickly as possible.

That's a good point. I analyzed this aspect when building my story and I found the same problems.
But skipping youth wasn't on the table for me. It's a part of reincarnation stories I don't like, when the growth stage is skipped.
So I tried to work the youth stage inside the narrative.

My solution was to use the time MC was a baby to explore the world around the MC.
Which also highlight the changes MC makes to the world later with their presence.
I also found a way for MC not to be alone during that time as insulation would indeed lead to insanity.


I don't know if it works for everyone, but personally I'm happy about how it worked out.

Bad:

- All initial drama is wasted UNLESS the post-reincarnation plot is somehow alegoric to it (which most fictions fail at)
- We are pretty much reading memoirs of someone who had a life before the one he / she's writing about (could be pretty much replaced with actual memoirs)

Good:

- Vengeance / katharsis literature. If the person had a miserable a original life and the author translates the suffering well into text, a second life could redeem him / her for the reader.


- They make a decent prologue to show off style and suspense (the pre-rebirth episode tends to end with violent death and psychological drama)

Really, anything can be good if the author knows what he / she is doing. I particularly can't see any EXCLUSIVE benefits from occupying the reader with an unrelated episode or two that won't be relevant to the story for the next 30 chapters. You can have good prologues and good katharsis without rebirths.

I always prefer my reincarnation novels as incarnation only.

It also allows you to create a juxtaposition as well. You can display a character at the height of power, only to have them humbled. In itself, it creates a premade narrative arc in which they surpass their former power. Of course, doing only this is lazy, but having a minor arc does not preclude the inclusion of major ones and you can end up with a really nice, melded set of short mid and long term arcs set to end at certain points throughout the story.

The main con I find is that if the subsequent parts are slow, you end up fucking over the reader with a nerfed character if you don't give them enough to sate their fancy.

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