A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#1
The creators of Naruto (Kishimoto), HxH (Togashi) and an editor from Shonen gathered for an interview about worldbuilding. Here's the part where they discuss the manga variant of LitRPG (RPG Isekai):

Togashi (HxH, Yu Yu Hakushou) and Masashi Kishimoto (Naruto) discuss Worldbuilding (Source)

Excerpt where they discuss LitRPG / RPG Isekai / Trip to an RPG world:

JUMP GIGA: By complete fantasy, that would be like something that takes place in medieval Europe with swords and magic?

Togashi Sensei: What’s dangerous is when people who like video game fantasy worlds try to express them in manga. I think it’s very difficult to express reality when you can’t get out of the feeling of a video game. So be careful about that.

JUMP GIGA: Why is that?

Togashi Sensei: What makes each fun and interesting is different. If you try to express what makes a video game fun in a manga, you’ll fail. I love games too, so I understand the desire to make a manga based on a game…

Kishimoto Sensei: In video games, you have fun by moving around a character who is an avatar of yourself. In manga, you have fun by watching a character who is not you move around. So they are very different. When you like a game so much, your view can be very subjective. Like “I love this game, so it’d be great as a manga!” But you’re entering it from a completely different place. In manga, the creator has to choose how the story unfolds while allowing the reader to empathize.

Togashi Sensei: There’s a big difference between participation and empathy.

Kishimoto Sensei: In video games, you can always reset things. You can change your gear or party members or other aspects however you want, so there’s drama in the actual play of the game. But with manga, it’s not about you, it’s drama about others. So you need to create it in a way so that the reader can relate to the story without feeling distressed. You can’t have a complex fantasy world that obstructs the reader from understanding the character’s motivations.

Editor: That’s a good point. There are a lot of submissions from new creators that are like, “I’m in a video game world!” Most of them are terribly boring.

JUMP GIGA: Do they feel like they’re stuck on your typical fantasy format?

Editor: It’s hard to give advice to them. I could feel that the story was lacking…but now I finally know the reason!

Togashi Sensei: When I play a video game, whether I like it or not is usually based on the game-play system. So it’s a totally different type of enjoyment.

Kishimoto Sensei: Yes. Games are made fun by their game design.

Togashi Sensei: It would be nice if you could bring that system into manga, but manga first needs to be interesting based on character relationships. So even if a manga was like a game, it would be meaningless because you couldn’t interact with it. What makes a manga great is whether or not you can relate to the characters that the manga artist creates.
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Kishimoto Sensei: I do think it’s important to expose yourself to different types of entertainment. It should help you see what kinds of things bring people joy. So this question itself is a little off… I know that’s rude, but…

Togashi Sensei: Oh, he’s scolding you, Kukai. [laughs]

Kishimoto Sensei: No, no. [laughs]

Togashi Sensei: If the characters are lively and the manga looks fun to read, the world doesn’t even matter.

Kishimoto Sensei: I feel like I once said something similar somewhere. [laughs]

Togashi Sensei: I understand how fun it is to create your own world though.

Kishimoto Sensei: I’m sure I would have asked the same question when I was a student. I’m not mad at Kukai, I relate to him. The question is asking about fantasy, but perhaps what he means is “a world that you can’t relate to.”
JUMP GIGA: “A world that you can’t relate to”?

Kishimoto Sensei: Take sports as an example. Pretty much everyone knows baseball, so I believe it’s easy to relate to.

JUMP GIGA: That makes sense.

Kishimoto Sensei: But if you bring in a niche sport, people don’t know the rules, so they can’t even tell what’s going on. So…and I apologize to people who play it, but something like kabaddi, the game from ancient India.

Togashi Sensei: For someone who’s never seen it before, kabaddi would be a fantasy world.

Kishimoto Sensei: Yes, they wouldn’t recognize it. So they can’t relate to it. So how do you suck someone into a story about kabaddi? You focus on the players. Why are they playing the sport? The drama of their motivations will interest the reader, and I think they will eventually learn the rules of the sport.

Togashi Sensei: It’s amazing how you can enjoy anything as long as there’s drama. You don’t need to know the rules. That’s 
one of the greatest strengths of storytelling.

Kishimoto Sensei: So first focus on the players, then the rules. Get that far, and the reader will enjoy it even if they didn’t know about the sport before.

UMP GIGA: You’re right. Sports manga usually save the rules for after you’re interested in the characters.


Kishimoto Sensei: The Downtown comedians have a skit where they do strange sports, and that is actually a very useful reference. The comedians are funny, so it’s enjoyable to keep watching. It’s the same for fantasy. Even if the creator is excited about the world, unless there’s interesting characters there, others won’t care. It’ll just be something they don’t understand...


What do you guys think? Are they right? This is a very popular genre at RRL.

Why do you particularly like this genre?
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RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#2
'Tanaka Tomoyuki' pid='828916' dateline='1509055442' Wrote: To be honest? They have a great point. I read stories because I like the characters, and I'm not really particular to what world they are in. The stats and levels just bore me, and I'm more invested in how the characters grow and get out of their predicament. If it has LitRPG elements, then so be it. On the other hand, if the story is about grinding, meandering on endless quests, etc. then I tend to get bored more easily.

An example is Dungeon Defense. I like the story because of Dantalian. I couldn't care less that it's set in a game. It could be a fantasy world, or VR, or whatever, it doesn't matter. Dantalian is what makes the story good and enjoyable for me. So I can understand Kishimoto Sensei's and Togashi Sensei's point of view when they emphasize on characters over the world-building. Often the world is built around the characters and not the other way round. Some people might disagree with that, but I'm not really sure obsessing over every detail of your world is a good direction. Maybe it is, but often I'm more interested in what the character does in that world than how different, magical, fantastic or detailed that world is.

This is me speaking as a reader.
I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, the elements that are not in game are the ones that interest me the most in the genre.

The best LitRPG work for me is this one:
https://i.gyazo.com/ae509ba89509b6e417b0...aad03d.png
Link if anyone wants to check out: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33827079-catharsis

Catharsis (Awaken Online) is basically a story about a boy who suffers bullying and uses his online virtual world to lash out, thus becoming the game's villain. 

Why is that a good use of a game? Because the game is there to serve the character, not the other way around. It's not a novelized grinding. In fact, you could replace the videogame with a sport, a job or anything that allowed him to lash out. You can build anything on the shoulders of a solid character.
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RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#3
I also agree (coming from someone, who writes a LitRPG Isekai), if you want to make anything interesting, you need to understand why people will like it in the first place.

Foremost, we have to remember, that both of them are successful professionals. Still, they don't even say something that's new, nor do they in any way critique the LitRPG-genre as a whole. Their basic points are:

  • The joy of games is interaction (e.g., with the system)

  • the LitRPG-genre right now is popular (and like every popular genre of their time, there are a bunch of people applying to the editor who doesn't make the cut; same as sports manga, etc.)

  • The characters are the centerpiece of a story (basic storytelling)

  • If you know how to write a story and make it enjoyable, the setting is only secondary (another basic)

It's very general storytelling-advise. If you look at the differences of novels and manga, you'll need to make more distinctions (as manga uses pictures and little text [unless you're Togashi-sensei] and therefore the outer character design, the set-up of panels, etc. are also important aspects, while novels usually rely only on words, making balance between descriptions and plot important).

So I see it as what I (and most writers and fans) already know: If you write a LitRPG, you can't rely on games for success. First, you need to make the story work as such. If your game system does help along the way, it's great. In my case, it adds a mysterium, as the MCs can look at their stats, but at the end, these are just numbers. What does a [Strength] of 13 even means?
Others may add it to give the reader some insight, to let them learn the rules or at least make them believe to know them. If you also look at the successful LitRPGs, it's not about the game mechanics (imo most would do horrible games), it's about the characters, the world-building (which involves the game system, but doesn't rely on it too much), and finally the little extra touch that makes them unique.

Btw, while those two mangakas are successful, it's not like I don't have a bone to pick with their stories. So even at the highest height, there is always criticism and ways to improve. Well, I guess the perfect stories would also be a perfect bore. :D

RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#4
1 thing sometimes puzzles me, MCs in litRPG who have access to those stats, always have the mindset of 'keep on grinding', but everyone else (in case of everyone being able to access like the MCs), don't, like at all, since after all, ppl do things with incentives, if u have access to things like stats, and it's possible to improve them, then it's rather natural that u seek out way(s) to do so

n like kentsurpg said, those numbers 're barely explained, is 100 STG means stronger than 10 STG 10 times, or stronger than 10 STG 90 units of STG, or 10 STG means 10% stronger than based-STG(0) and 90 means 90% or something?

it actually brings more unecessaries, risks, etc. than it actually gives insights or explains things

RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#5
'mlovolm' pid='828959' dateline='1509084018' Wrote: n like kentsurpg said, those numbers 're barely explained, is 100 STG means stronger than 10 STG 10 times, or stronger than 10 STG 90 units of STG, or 10 STG means 10% stronger than based-STG(0) and 90 means 90% or something? 

it actually brings more unecessaries, risks, etc. than it actually gives insights or explains things
This ties in with the final part where Togashi and Kishimoto compare LitRPG to sports. The rules in sports are known, simple and clear; yet the rules for a game can be just crazy. We never really know what having one point of an attribute really means.

Wouldn't it be better to just set the LitRPG aside and make a volleyball book? 6 athletes (6 possible deep characters) and rules that are easy and clear to follow.
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RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#6
'Media in Sanity' pid='828968' dateline='1509108119' Wrote: Wouldn't it be better to just set the LitRPG aside and make a volleyball book? 6 athletes (6 possible deep characters) and rules that are easy and clear to follow.

If you can write one, go ahead, I'll check it out! :D

Just don't underestimate the sports genre, since the sixties many people came to Shounen Jump to present a sport manga draft, just to be dismissed by the fact, that it just wasn't interesting! ;) Well, you know what I mean. ^^



About your question, I think it's still different. A story about volleyball has a whole other array on possibilities than a setting about being trapped in a fantasy world (just to say one setting of the very vast possibilities of LitRPG). Here some examples, how some keywords suddenly change by changing the setting (just some suggestions):

KeywordVolleyballTrapped in fantasy world
TeamworkIf it doesn't work, you'll lose the game, too many losses will make it impossible to the MC to get the recognition to become a pro (future conflict)If it doesn't work, you'll die (present conflict)
DietYou need to jump with every pound you weighBetter eat much, so that you have the energy to survive, who knows when you can eat next time
Gym TrainingYou need the body to play your sport to your bestWhy wasting energy to enhance muscles, if you can take a rest to recharge your energy for a change
LoveCan your passion of volleyball and your love life coexist?Can a love life hold, if your partner can't understand you most of the time, as the whole culture and the way of life are different (it's hard enough between nations sometimes)
ComedySlice of life, a bit of schadenfreude here and thereSee characters freaking out of some fantasy stuff, a hint of sarcasm about things, that don't do well in the fantasy world


With another setting, you just get another toolbox, and specific tools work well. One of the goals of most authors is to connect the characters to the reader, and having similar interests (like gaming) can greatly help. If done well, you don't need to know the rules, the mangakas even support this assumption.
Ever saw "The Gamers"? I don't know their system, but it also don't matter, because many conflicts, ridiculousness, and other experiences there are seen in any tabletop RPG, so of course I laughed hard... well, still laugh hard every time I see it!

The important message here is imo, know your tools, know what they can do and what they can't do, and don't be too reliant of the system you created. I mean, neither Naruto nor Hunter x Hunter are about the chakra/Nen-system, but about the characters, one who tries to crawl up from the dirt of society to the idol of the same, the other of a optimistic and well-meaning child in a complicated world full of stuff that's opposed to his attitude... while he can still maintain it for the most part and pull people into his cheerfulness.
The mangaka don't bash LitRPG at all, just have some concerns about writers who tries to create GameLit (as a more open term) with too much of a game feeling, while forgetting about storytelling fundamentals. Not like they would do so, with ninjas and hunters going around in their stories, doing stuff that's neither logical nor by any rule we can understand, which makes it predictable what goes and what doesn't, they always need someone to explain it... if they bother at all. :D


Check out this series. If you've ever wondered how something can be interesting and fun to read despite the fact, that the setting is strange, often surprising, and don't always make sense, then this story can provide you with more questions.
https://cdn.royalroadl.com/outspanfoster...2b0ccd.png

RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#7
Those are very good points! i agree with them.
No wonder I love both of those manga.
I love Nen in HxH and it's overexpained systems.
I didn't like naruto nearly as much because of inconsistencies with jutsus **spoiler** (every jutsu is the strongest until a stronger one is revealed next week. Or the Anbus who are way too many and essentially red shirts. Or the first hokage being revealed to be broken beyond belief after the theme that children will always surpass the master.) and all the deux machinas pulled toward the ending, but overall it was enjoyable. I liked the characters, the world and the rivalries.

Games are interactive medium, so game mechanics are major focus.
Mangas are a non interactive medium. It's about telling a story.

The conclusion is that using game elements in the story is good as long as the focus is in the story, not in the game systems.
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Twilight Over Arcania - My take on the resurrection theme

RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#8
'Reya Dawnbringer' pid='829008' dateline='1509197269' Wrote: Those are very good points! i agree with them.
No wonder I love both of those manga.
I love Nen in HxH and it's overexpained systems.
I didn't like naruto nearly as much because of inconsistencies with jutsus **spoiler** (every jutsu is the strongest until a stronger one is revealed next week. Or the Anbus who are way too many and essentially red shirts. Or the first hokage being revealed to be broken beyond belief after the theme that children will always surpass the master.) and all the deux machinas pulled toward the ending, but overall it was enjoyable. I liked the characters, the world and the rivalries.

Games are interactive medium, so game mechanics are major focus.
Mangas are a non interactive medium. It's about telling a story.

The conclusion is that using game elements in the story is good as long as the focus is in the story, not in the game systems.
I think the 'Amem' of all problems in fiction is:

"As long as the characters are good, everything goes."

We care about Rocky Balboa, not his performance in boxing. You could have Rocky as a fisherman and everything would be the same. Boxing is more emotionally moving to see in the medium of cinema, but you get the idea.
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RE: A Case Against LitRPG (From Naruto and HxH Creators)

#9
All good points and I agree that the LitRPGs that do well have strong characters.

However, I've been wondering whether I've been overlooking the game world itself as a character in the best of these stories. In Ascend Online it's Alfred the AI, but what about other game worlds that speak to us like the harsh but beautiful world of SAO, or dozens of others that have their own unique flavor. In our rush to put stats to something I sometimes wonder whether we neglect the game's personality and in some cases it's own motivations.