Another Review Exchange

#1
Fellow wonderers of the Royal Road,

I, like so many before me, offer to review your work as you review mine. I prefer for a "public facing" review on the fiction page, with any particularly technical critiques here.

That is not an attempt to be disingenuous to our readers, but I think most won't be interested in my failure to introduce the breeding habits of the Australian wombat, or the appropriateness of split infinitives in dialog.

I will return the favor likewise. I give a small warning that I am a professor who actively avoids teaching undergraduates for many reasons, but a significant one is my distaste for reading their work. I've put out enough reviews here that you should be able to gauge my review style by looking through my profile.

If I feel like I can't give your work a review higher than 3.5 overall, I will put the full review here instead. It's really not my goal to be mean or drive anyone's ratings down, rather I hope to be clear and objective.

I've also taken up the WhiteSamurai Rambling Method in forum posts as a possible filter/control. Can you tell?

My fiction:

http://www.royalroadl.com/fiction/7895/handyman

RE: Another Review Exchange

#8
'baronblackwell' pid='830232' dateline='1511312536' Wrote: I'll take you up on your offer if you're still interested.

My fiction: http://royalroadl.com/fiction/12313/the-undying-prince

Hey, just FYI, it's going to take me awhile to get through The Undying Prince. I can tell you're doing you're best to make a professional effort, and have put quite a lot of toil into the work. That said, working through the chapters so far has been, for lack of a better word, drudgery.

I think that your chapters could easily be edited down by ~30%. I know that you are aiming for a descriptive and immersive style, but it actually comes off as rambling and undisciplined. Real beauty lasts in writing when word economy and immersion are married.

You need someone else (you trust) to come in, talk about the trajectory you plan on moving, and then really let them work to trim out the fat. If I can quote Regina Spektor, "you can write, but you can't edit." It's a separate skill, and most people haven't cultivated both. That said, I plan to work my way through it, it's just going to take me a lot longer.

As I noted in a comment, the only other real critique I have at the moment is that you need to watch your changes/shifts in perspective. If you are going to change the point of view/scope, then you really need to work on finding the natural blend that occurs within your narrative. If you want a masterful example of how this can be done, I really recommend Childhood by Tolstoy.

While we're on the subject of Tolstoy, he made other examples that break the mold in ways that will help your style. You may have heard "show don't tell," but Tolstoy was able to artfully "show AND tell." If you're in for a shorter read, I highly recommend Hadji Murat as an example for how to hold prospective and be descriptive while maintaining solid pacing. Of course, it's hard to rise to the level of Tolstoy, and I doubt anyone really expects that.


'Cassidy_Lilly' pid='830421' dateline='1511615847' Wrote:
'Volos' pid='830420' dateline='1511615615' Wrote: Sounds good. I'm working through Blackwell's 1st, then I will get to yours. Spent American Thanksgiving in a very rural area away from internet and cell service.


Awesome.  I'll do yours first thing tomorrow morning.

Yours is up. I must say I was pleasantly surprised. The only chapter that I think might need a major rework is chapter 4. Writing in the fog of war is hard, and I'm assuming you don't want it to be crystal clear what happens. It might be better with more internal narrative, but you need to make sure you don't slow down your pacing at all (which is appropriately quick for the scene). Perhaps just a little more clarity can be held before the MC goes down.

I really like both your world building, and that you've been giving it to us in chunks. I'm a little worried that we're going to get an info dump if/when we make it to Gun Town, but I don't want to critique writing I haven't seen yet. A small note, it seems a bit odd that Gun Town is labeled as a safe area on the map, unless more information is given on the other areas as well. If the person making the map assumes people know the locations listed, then that person wouldn't bother. If they are making a map that is trying to teach someone about the geopolitical layout, then it seems like it would mark dangerous areas more readily than safe ones (or note that everywhere else is dangerous).

Look forward to seeing what else you produce,
Volos

RE: Another Review Exchange

#9
Appreciate the feedack and the advice on the map and chapter 4.  Will have a look into those things, thanks!  I'll review your story right now (sorry got caught up IRL). 


'Volos' pid='830494' dateline='1511817511' Wrote:
'baronblackwell' pid='830232' dateline='1511312536' Wrote: I'll take you up on your offer if you're still interested.

My fiction: http://royalroadl.com/fiction/12313/the-undying-prince

Hey, just FYI, it's going to take me awhile to get through The Undying Prince.  I can tell you're doing you're best to make a professional effort, and have put quite a lot of toil into the work.  That said, working through the chapters so far has been, for lack of a better word, drudgery.

I think that your chapters could easily be edited down by ~30%.  I know that you are aiming for a descriptive and immersive style, but it actually comes off as rambling and undisciplined.   Real beauty lasts in writing when word economy and immersion are married.

You need someone else (you trust) to come in, talk about the trajectory you plan on moving, and then really let them work to trim out the fat.  If I can quote Regina Spektor, "you can write, but you can't edit."  It's a separate skill, and most people haven't cultivated both.  That said, I plan to work my way through it, it's just going to take me a lot longer.

As I noted in a comment, the only other real critique I have at the moment is that you need to watch your changes/shifts in perspective.  If you are going to change the point of view/scope, then you really need to work on finding the natural blend that occurs within your narrative.  If you want a masterful example of how this can be done, I really recommend Childhood by Tolstoy.

While we're on the subject of Tolstoy, he made other examples that break the mold in ways that will help your style.  You may have heard "show don't tell," but Tolstoy was able to artfully "show AND tell."  If you're in for a shorter read, I highly recommend Hadji Murat as an example for how to hold prospective and be descriptive while maintaining solid pacing.  Of course, it's hard to rise to the level of Tolstoy, and I doubt anyone really expects that.


'Cassidy_Lilly' pid='830421' dateline='1511615847' Wrote:
'Volos' pid='830420' dateline='1511615615' Wrote: Sounds good. I'm working through Blackwell's 1st, then I will get to yours. Spent American Thanksgiving in a very rural area away from internet and cell service.


Awesome.  I'll do yours first thing tomorrow morning.

Yours is up.  I must say I was pleasantly surprised.  The only chapter that I think might need a major rework is chapter 4.  Writing in the fog of war is hard, and I'm assuming you don't want it to be crystal clear what happens.  It might be better with more internal narrative, but you need to make sure you don't slow down your pacing at all (which is appropriately quick for the scene).  Perhaps just a little more clarity can be held before the MC goes down.

I really like both your world building, and that you've been giving it to us in chunks.  I'm a little worried that we're going to get an info dump if/when we make it to Gun Town, but I don't want to critique writing I haven't seen yet.  A small note, it seems a bit odd that Gun Town is labeled as a safe area on the map, unless more information is given on the other areas as well.  If the person making the map assumes people know the locations listed, then that person wouldn't bother.  If they are making a map that is trying to teach someone about the geopolitical layout, then it seems like it would mark dangerous areas more readily than safe ones (or note that everywhere else is dangerous).

Look forward to seeing what else you produce,
Volos
Want to read about Angels fighting each other with swords?  Check out my story:  All of The Angels

RE: Another Review Exchange

#11
Sure, I'll take a look. LMK what you think of mine as well (see OP for details if you didn't read it).

'God_is_Good' pid='830501' dateline='1511824309' Wrote: If it's okay with you, I'd love it if you could find time to review mine.  :)  Thank you so much, this means the world to me.

http://www.royalroadl.com/fiction/14788/terminal


'God_is_Good' pid='830501' dateline='1511824309' Wrote: If it's okay with you, I'd love it if you could find time to review mine. :) Thank you so much, this means the world to me.

http://www.royalroadl.com/fiction/14788/terminal


Okay, so I gave it a read through, but to be honest you're a little short on content for a full review. What you have so far as compelling, and I think you're accurately grabbing a portrayal of a teenager with leukemia, but it's just too soon to get much more than proofreading. Your grammar is solid. Everything you have so far is correct, there's just not enough of it to really say anything of substance. I'd be happy to take another look when you have about twice as much.

RE: Another Review Exchange

#13
It would be cool getting feedback from someone who has read my story from the beginning. You don't have to read the whole thing. Maybe the first two chapters and then for as long as you don't get bored as long as you let me know when you got bored and what it was that pulled you out. The link to my story is in my signature. Here is my review. Let me know if your cool with me posting it as an advanced review and I'll do so.
*****
Read up to chapter 24. The start of the story was your basic reincarnation in another world beginning. Nothing really surprising or dramatically different from other reincarnation stories but there were no mistakes in the writing so it was easy for me to continue to read.

The last two chapters really made it feel like we are encountering a world with a very distinct culture. In general I think the writing could use more description in small things to make the place seem more distinct earlier. Because the main characters father was called a Grand Duke I had this generic view of a medieval castle in my head from the start which didn't quite visually work with the back and forth exchange during the negotiations that had the flavor of a nomadic culture to me somehow? In retrospect I don't recall any descriptions of what the rooms in the Grand Duke's palace look like. For that matter, I don't think you described the armor anyone was wearing in any particular detail. What the common soldiers wear versus what elite soldiers like the main character's mother would wear should be distinct and would be another way to show the culture of the world you're trying to build.

I recall a character saying that the Axtuli culture was very distinctive from the culture of the Empire. You told us that but you could show it by describing the eastern vs western clothing or art or talking about how around family the Duke wore relaxed traditional robes while of he was being visited by a head of state or someone not in his family he wore clothing more common to the Empire.

I'd give the story a 4 because, while there are stories with better description,  at the end of chapter 24 I was definitely curious to see how the negotiations would turn out.
An Urban Fantasy Set In A Unique Universe
Eight God Engine

RE: Another Review Exchange

#14
Thanks for the feedback, you can always do as you like with your review. I'll take a look at your work.

I disagree with many of the opinions on this site in regards to the appropriate amount of description, and aim to use short descriptive language that follows the narrative. This does in fact leave many things to the reader's imagination, which I acknowledge is less popular and a more classic way to write than most modern fantasy (aiming more for The Iliad than Wheel of Time series).

I could go into the details of how art is in fact introduced as it crosses the narrative, but only if you're actually interested in an academic discussion on descriptions and descriptive language in fiction. Otherwise, I think it is probably suffice to say that I have no intention of going back and adding the kind of descriptions you seem to be indicating.

'Vze3vdnp ' pid='830528' dateline='1511872113' Wrote: It would be cool getting feedback from someone who has read my story from the beginning. You don't have to read the whole thing. Maybe the first two chapters and then for as long as you don't get bored as long as you let me know when you got bored and what it was that pulled you out. The link to my story is in my signature. Here is my review. Let me know if your cool with me posting it as an advanced review and I'll do so.
*****
Read up to chapter 24. The start of the story was your basic reincarnation in another world beginning. Nothing really surprising or dramatically different from other reincarnation stories but there were no mistakes in the writing so it was easy for me to continue to read.

The last two chapters really made it feel like we are encountering a world with a very distinct culture. In general I think the writing could use more description in small things to make the place seem more distinct earlier. Because the main characters father was called a Grand Duke I had this generic view of a medieval castle in my head from the start which didn't quite visually work with the back and forth exchange during the negotiations that had the flavor of a nomadic culture to me somehow? In retrospect I don't recall any descriptions of what the rooms in the Grand Duke's palace look like. For that matter, I don't think you described the armor anyone was wearing in any particular detail. What the common soldiers wear versus what elite soldiers like the main character's mother would wear should be distinct and would be another way to show the culture of the world you're trying to build.

I recall a character saying that the Axtuli culture was very distinctive from the culture of the Empire. You told us that but you could show it by describing the eastern vs western clothing or art or talking about how around family the Duke wore relaxed traditional robes while of he was being visited by a head of state or someone not in his family he wore clothing more common to the Empire.

I'd give the story a 4 because, while there are stories with better description,  at the end of chapter 24 I was definitely curious to see how the negotiations would turn out.


To be clear, I want to in no way imply that my work is up to level of Homer, it's just where I'm aiming.

RE: Another Review Exchange

#15
I'm not saying that you need to fill your story with pages of descriptions. It's just that in chapter six when I read this:

'“Good heavens! Now he’s speaking in tongues. We need to get a priest in here ASAP. Huritt and Talo, you will stay right here.” Powaw stepped out of the barriers, then added another around Talo. “Steward, fetch the bishop at once, this could be an emergency. Do it with as much discretion as you can muster. I must take care of the Grand Duchess.” The steward, like most of the palace staff, could be relied on to keep secrets.'

When I read the words Priest, Bishop, Grand Duchess, and palace staff, because I have to imagine where they are it implies a Game of Thrones type European medieval setting. But in chapter 24 the highly descriptive ornate ritual of negotiation felt alien to the generic Europeam medieval setting I'd given the surroundings. I don't think you should get rid of chapter 24 because that was the first time I was VERY interested in what was going on, but you might want to foreshadow the differences especially when your main character is an adult mind from another world who would notice the dissonance between two different cultures that were in the process of merging. Also Homer has the advantage where, just like someone writing a book in modern times, you don't have to overly describe a television or a car because everyone knew what they were. I remember reading the Illiad and the Odyssey and just putting everyone in white togas and tunics without really thinking about it and he never introduced any language that contradicted the imagery of that setting.

I'll read your story whether you change it or not because I'm interested in what happens next, but your writing is at the level where I have to start comparing it to the best I've read on this site. I'm just informing you of the effect your description had on me. Good luck with the story.
An Urban Fantasy Set In A Unique Universe
Eight God Engine

RE: Another Review Exchange

#16
Interesting that you highlight the conflict and tension I aim to create. The narrative deals with a conquered people, a mindset I find many Americans, and Westerners in general, struggle with. The Empire is indeed based off of European cultures, but the Axculi are not. Yet they represent the Empire in the West. The descriptions flowing through chapters 23-25 are included because, most importantly, they follow the narrative, and secondly serve to highlight the dissonance.

As I see no reason that technological development should mirror Earth given such a drastic addition to natural law (other than our tendency to be a self absorbed species), particular time periods (like medieval) will never comfortably fit by design. An easy example of this is found within the medical knowledge of the Axculi (well advanced of even Renaissance understanding). Either way, my goal is to create compelling enough narrative that it doesn't matter if you imagine everyone running around in togas, loin cloth, or regalia. Feel free to ask me to add something to the glossary if you are unsure about its meaning to the point of not being able to visualize it. I do that understanding it requires more work from my readers.

And don't worry, I think you will enjoy 25 if you enjoyed 24.


'Vze3vdnp ' pid='830532' dateline='1511881866' Wrote: I'm not saying that you need to fill your story with pages of descriptions. It's just that in chapter six when I read this:

'“Good heavens!  Now he’s speaking in tongues.  We need to get a priest in here ASAP.  Huritt and Talo, you will stay right here.”  Powaw stepped out of the barriers, then added another around Talo.  “Steward, fetch the bishop at once, this could be an emergency.  Do it with as much discretion as you can muster.  I must take care of the Grand Duchess.”  The steward, like most of the palace staff, could be relied on to keep secrets.'

When I read the words Priest, Bishop, Grand Duchess, and palace staff, because I have to imagine where they are it implies a Game of Thrones type European medieval setting. But in chapter 24 the highly descriptive ornate ritual of negotiation felt alien to the generic Europeam medieval setting I'd given the surroundings. I don't think you should get rid of chapter 24 because that was the first time I was VERY interested in what was going on, but you might want to foreshadow the differences especially when your main character is an adult mind from another world who would notice the dissonance between two  different cultures that were in the process of merging. Also Homer has the advantage where, just like someone writing a book in modern times, you don't have to overly describe a television or a car because everyone knew what they were. I remember reading the Illiad and the Odyssey and just putting everyone in white togas and tunics without really thinking about it and he never introduced any language that contradicted the imagery of that setting.

I'll read your story whether you change it or not because I'm interested in what happens next, but your writing is at the level where I have to start comparing it to the best I've read on this site. I'm just informing you of the effect your description had on me. Good luck with the story.

RE: Another Review Exchange

#17
So I finally made it through Eight God Engine, and I'm really glad I did. It's a strong work, with enough creativity for me to actually find it interesting. That said, under normal circumstances I would have dropped it after the prologue. Or chapter 1. Or 2. Those three need a serious rewrite, which is interesting to me when I see that you wrote them out of order (which is fine, I do that as well).


Remember that at the beginning of the work, no one gives a damn about any of your characters. I don't want to hear them whine about their plight and I definitely don't want to slog through lamentation on their perceptions of a broken world(s). I just don't care, and most others won't either. In some of the later chapters, I think you successfully pull off descriptive exposition, but your first 5 entries bomb (and occasionally wonder into purple prose). Chapters 3-4 can probably just be tightened down a bit, but I really think 0-2 should be burned to the ground and the ash used to fertilize better writing.


To really up your game, because I think your work is good enough to start thinking about the next level, I'm curious about what device(s) you think you are writing? A fable, fantasy novel, political/social novel, epic, comedy, tragedy, or perhaps a web series that rolls along so long it would have been more merciful to use a steam roller than to beat down the dead horse so much? I'm concerned you're aiming for the later, and will note that many commercially successful print fantasies run into the same literary criticism (therefore it's an understandable, if not regrettable, choice). If you're just trying to illicit an emotion, as some of your comments might indicate, then you should really be giving your hand to poetry rather than prose.


How you answer that question greatly effects the smart choices available, and the advice I can give you. You really have the makings of a great tragedy, which is why I think you should take a moment to think about how you could really kill Jaq (your current MC). She's a wonderful character, I like her, she's fleshed out, with a wonderful backstory, and I (and probably you along with your readers) want her to win. That's why it makes a wonderful tragedy if she doesn't. Even better if you kill her before the end, and are left with painting the world without her.


It can be tricky to kill the MC in a work utilizing a close first person perspective, but it can be done. I think you're up to the task, and even if you don't follow through with it, your narrative should improve for considering it.


If you want I can write/post up an RRL review for you, but I'll be able to write a much better one if you rewrite the intro. Your grammar could be polished here and there, but isn't at a level I find distracting, which puts you into the top 10% of the site. Just let me know.